Krag versus SMLE

[Ares590]

OK wrong video to make the comment about recoil, firing rate is the point, heres one with live rounds for you (I know its not as fast, this isn't a trained specialist in Lee Enfields, just an enthuisiast )

I'm not doubting Lee Enfields can be fired fast, im doubting the 38 in a minute record, based mainly on the reloads.

[meles meles]

Sergeant Instructor Snoxall, School of Musketry, Hythe, 1914. Rifle charged with 10 rounds to start with.

[Ares590]

The 38 rounds per minute record is true

I actually find that very difficult to believe,

From http://historicalfirearms.tumblr.com/po ... ing-in-the

The record for the most hits on target during a ‘Mad Minute' stood at 38 hits in 60 seconds, set in 1914 by an Instructor Sergeant Alfred Snoxall. It has not been beaten since. Hitting the target 38 times would require him to fire the 10 rounds pre-loaded in the SMLE’s magazine and then reload 6 times with 5 round stripper clips. Add onto this that the rifle was a single shot, bolt action rifle which required the user to push up and retract the bolt and then return it forward pushing a new round into the chamber, then aiming and fire. All while maintaining his cheek weld and line of sight. This means Snoxall must have averaged around 1.5 seconds per shot to hit the target 38 times in a minute. Quite a feat.

and here http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/tag/snoxall/

The first is a blog, and its source is a BBC article that makes no mention of Snoxall.
the second tells us how someone manages that rate of with a modern rifle ergonomic stock and detachable magazines. he didn't do a full minutes worth, he did under half that time, so if you factor in longer reloads and more of them, it would take up a greater amount of time.

[Sandgroper]

The first is a blog, and its source is a BBC article that makes no mention of Snoxall.
the second tells us how someone manages that rate of with a modern rifle ergonomic stock and detachable magazines. he didn't do a full minutes worth, he did under half that time, so if you factor in longer reloads and more of them, it would take up a greater amount of time.

If you had looked at all of the accurate shooter article you would had read -

To emphasize the capabilities of the WWI-era British shooter who set the record, Snoxall shot as fast as Børklop does, but Snoxall reloaded with stripper clips. Snoxall’s SMLE (Lee-Enfield) rifle also had relatively crude open sights and the stock was far less ergonomic than Børklop’s Sauer STR stock.

The blog might not have been the best reference but it at least mentioned Snoxall and his record and you could have done some research yourself.

However, I get the impression you won't be happy until you see it performed on youtube or the like and even then you'll only find fault. :roll:

[Ares590]

However, I get the impression you won't be happy until you see it performed on youtube or the like and even then you'll only find fault. :roll:

I've actually been looking for more information about Snoxall for a while on the internet and I cant actually find anything reliable. nothing at all, just forum and blog posts. look at the audio link I posted before.
basicly
54 sec for 38 shots
1.4 per shot
2-3 per reload of 5rd clip 16-24 on just reloads
Im sorry, I just don't believe it.
He isn't mentioned anywhere, other than forum posts like I say.
Maybe you don't agree, but it sounds highly unlikely to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1BRY113whw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sP9q7918DQI

[Blighty]

I looked into this a few years ago when I bought my SMLE. Snoxall does seem to be a bit elusive when it comes down to hard facts. I also had a go at what I understood rapid fire to be. Grab fore end with left arm and pull rifle into your shoulder. There the rifle stays. Your right hand is now free to feed the rifle. When shooting grab the bolt with you right thumb and index finger. Unless re-loading there they stay. Middle finger pulls the trigger. Try it. Rate of fire after a bit of practice is impressive. From a line of motivated and highly trained British volunteers it must have been utterly devastating. The reason why the Germans at Mons thought the Brits had machine guns!

[tackb]

However, I get the impression you won't be happy until you see it performed on youtube or the like and even then you'll only find fault. :roll:

I've actually been looking for more information about Snoxall for a while on the internet and I cant actually find anything reliable. nothing at all, just forum and blog posts. look at the audio link I posted before.
basicly
54 sec for 38 shots
1.4 per shot
2-3 per reload of 5rd clip 16-24 on just reloads
Im sorry, I just don't believe it.
He isn't mentioned anywhere, other than forum posts like I say.
Maybe you don't agree, but it sounds highly unlikely to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1BRY113whw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sP9q7918DQI

I believe it is possible , the accuracy claims are more difficult to believe for me but I do think it is entirely possible to get the rate of fire claimed ?

one thing is for sure , the rate of fire is much better than a mauser g98 !

[dromia]

Here is Chris Roads giving it what for with an SMLE from the Riflemen All episode of the BBC series The Gun. 12 minutes 50 seconds in.



Note the 1970s hearing protection.

[Steve E]

Sergeant Instructor Snoxall, School of Musketry, Hythe, 1914. Rifle charged with 10 rounds to start with.

And very little if any documentary evidence that it actually happened. If Sgt Snoxall existed (and the SASC can't prove it either way) he would have shot the " record" prone from a fire step in a trench on a target that was close to the modern 600 yd target but shot at 200yds. Hardly an example of a high standard of marksmanship. Pre WW1 the standard that all infantry had to achieve was 24 aimed shots in 1 minute. The targets of the day were very large compared to what we shoot on today, so a lot of it is comparing apples with oranges.
A lot of what has/is said about Sgt Snoxall may be just myth. Tell the same story enough times and it becomes a truth that some people will always believe wether it is true or not.

[tackb]

Sergeant Instructor Snoxall, School of Musketry, Hythe, 1914. Rifle charged with 10 rounds to start with.

And very little if any documentary evidence that it actually happened. If Sgt Snoxall existed (and the SASC can't prove it either way) he would have shot the " record" prone from a fire step in a trench on a target that was close to the modern 600 yd target but shot at 200yds. Hardly an example of a high standard of marksmanship. Pre WW1 the standard that all infantry had to achieve was 24 aimed shots in 1 minute. The targets of the day were very large compared to what we shoot on today, so a lot of it is comparing apples with oranges.

so reasonable to presume that some are better than others especially instructors and could achieve more than the regulation 24rpm ?