Devon and Cornwall PCC

[TomH]

Either way, stepping outside with a gun in your hand in such circumstances, even if your intentions are good, carries an extreme risk to your own life.

Exactly, far better to run out armed with a pot of tea following the recent advice by Comrade Corbyn that British Troops should drink tea with ISIL rather than bomb them. Tea may also be concealed carried in a flask for when you are out and about.

[HH1]

I think the initial scenario is extraordinarily unlikely to occur, so taking it to the absolute extreme and have the 'which gunman to shoot' choice like in a film where the hero doesn't know which evil twin/clone/doppleganger to shoot is pushing the boundaries of believability

Either way, stepping outside with a gun in your hand in such circumstances, even if your intentions are good, carries an extreme risk to your own life.

I actually agree with you....

But I listen every week to the "Gun Talk Podcast", were Tom Gresham regularly talks about "INTOT"... I Never Thought Of That.... Seemly bizarre things can happen when people have not thought though the possibilities.

His other saying is "you don't know, what you don't know"......

[Racalman]

It is perfectly legal in the UK to defend yourself by any proportionate means. If you are indoors with access to firearms and an armed nutter is outside killing people you would be exercising your common law duty to prevent crime by shooting him. The fact that the firearm used is not held with a condition for self defence is irrelevant.

[Dark Skies]

Some good points there Blackstuff.

Lets just put the Paris attack to one side and consider the case of either Michael Ryan & Derrick Bird.... they had time to plan what they were going to do..... now just imagine you hear gun shots outside and people screaming for help.... you grab a shotgun and run out into the street to help..... the Armed police miraculously turn up in record time.... to to find both of you... IC1 males with guns..... Michael or Derrick brandish their certificate in the air while yelling "he's the baddie" while pointing at you.... and the police shoot you instead of him.

It comes down to "INTOT".... I Never Thought Of That.

We could argue that in the current climate, that it would be easier to determine who the "baddie" is = the IC4 or IC6 bearded man yelling about God.... But then that might be classed as "stereotyping people"...

Actually Michael Ryan didn't have time to plan anything. Events just spiralled out of his control following an impulse shooting of a young mother in Savernake Forest. Everything thereafter ensued from panic and a series of disasters from the moment he drove out of the forest, to getting petrol, to going home, and being unable to restart his car. Had his car been properly maintained and he'd fled to wherever the hell he though he would go the random shootings probably would not have occurred. He'd have most likely topped himself somewhere quiet once he realized he was done. Unfortunately the car didn't start and in a moment of resignation he embarked on his spree. There was no planning whatsoever - totally random.

Had someone shot him, entirely plausible given the area, history would have been the better for it.
I worked in Hungerford for years; it's a rural area steeped in agriculture where firearms are commonplace -many of the homes he walked past would be likely to have at least a shotgun to hand. Unfortunately British people have been groomed that it's socially more acceptable to be a dead innocent victim than an aggressive survivor.

Ryan was a member of our club. He wasn't quick-witted enough to brandish his FAC and deflect blame in your what if scenario. He always came across as a bit thick - although he tended not to say much in the club so conversation was scarce.

Bird was another loser without a plan - based mainly on a grudge with his brother, the family solicitor, and a few cabbies he knew and had issues with. After that a might as well hang for a sheep as a lamb spree ensued. He mostly drove about calling people over to his car and then shot at them. Again carried out in a very rural area where a high number of people were likely to have firearms for sport, work, and pleasure.

Both incidents could have been ended early on had Britain a more enlightened view to self-defence.

It's come to something when we have to weigh up the hassle of doing something to promote our own survival or that of others over just going with the accepted flow and hoping we don't get shot in the back or that a moment of mercy might prevail.

[joe]

Some good points there Blackstuff.

Lets just put the Paris attack to one side and consider the case of either Michael Ryan & Derrick Bird.... they had time to plan what they were going to do..... now just imagine you hear gun shots outside and people screaming for help.... you grab a shotgun and run out into the street to help..... the Armed police miraculously turn up in record time.... to to find both of you... IC1 males with guns..... Michael or Derrick brandish their certificate in the air while yelling "he's the baddie" while pointing at you.... and the police shoot you instead of him.

It comes down to "INTOT".... I Never Thought Of That.

We could argue that in the current climate, that it would be easier to determine who the "baddie" is = the IC4 or IC6 bearded man yelling about God.... But then that might be classed as "stereotyping people"...

Actually Michael Ryan didn't have time to plan anything. Events just spiralled out of his control following an impulse shooting of a young mother in Savernake Forest. Everything thereafter ensued from panic and a series of disasters from the moment he drove out of the forest, to getting petrol, to going home, and being unable to restart his car. Had his car been properly maintained and he'd fled to wherever the hell he though he would go the random shootings probably would not have occurred. He'd have most likely topped himself somewhere quiet once he realized he was done. Unfortunately the car didn't start and in a moment of resignation he embarked on his spree. There was no planning whatsoever - totally random.

Had someone shot him, entirely plausible given the area, history would have been the better for it.
I worked in Hungerford for years; it's a rural area steeped in agriculture where firearms are commonplace -many of the homes he walked past would be likely to have at least a shotgun to hand. Unfortunately British people have been groomed that it's socially more acceptable to be a dead innocent victim than an aggressive survivor.

Ryan was a member of our club. He wasn't quick-witted enough to brandish his FAC and deflect blame in your what if scenario. He always came across as a bit thick - although he tended not to say much in the club so conversation was scarce.

Bird was another loser without a plan - based mainly on a grudge with his brother, the family solicitor, and a few cabbies he knew and had issues with. After that a might as well hang for a sheep as a lamb spree ensued. He mostly drove about calling people over to his car and then shot at them. Again carried out in a very rural area where a high number of people were likely to have firearms for sport, work, and pleasure.

Both incidents could have been ended early on had Britain a more enlightened view to self-defence.

It's come to something when we have to weigh up the hassle of doing something to promote our own survival or that of others over just going with the accepted flow and hoping we don't get shot in the back or that a moment of mercy might prevail.

Spot on, yet there is so much case law that states you can defend yourself and others
Even in statute law - reseasonable force for the prevention of crime
Here are just few examples :-

R v fegan - using / carrying unliencsed pistol
For defence

R v Duffy 1967 - DUTY between strangers to prevent felony

R v chisam 1963 " ... where a forcible and violent felony is attempted upon the person of another, the party assaulted, or his servant, or any other person present, is entitled to repel force by force, and, if necessary, to kill the aggressor..." Lord Parker CJ

[HH1]

Actually Michael Ryan didn't have time to plan anything. Events just spiralled out of his control following an impulse shooting of a young mother in Savernake Forest. Everything thereafter ensued from panic and a series of disasters from the moment he drove out of the forest, to getting petrol, to going home, and being unable to restart his car. Had his car been properly maintained and he'd fled to wherever the hell he though he would go the random shootings probably would not have occurred. He'd have most likely topped himself somewhere quiet once he realized he was done. Unfortunately the car didn't start and in a moment of resignation he embarked on his spree. There was no planning whatsoever - totally random.

Had someone shot him, entirely plausible given the area, history would have been the better for it.
I worked in Hungerford for years; it's a rural area steeped in agriculture where firearms are commonplace -many of the homes he walked past would be likely to have at least a shotgun to hand. Unfortunately British people have been groomed that it's socially more acceptable to be a dead innocent victim than an aggressive survivor.

Ryan was a member of our club. He wasn't quick-witted enough to brandish his FAC and deflect blame in your what if scenario. He always came across as a bit thick - although he tended not to say much in the club so conversation was scarce.

Bird was another loser without a plan - based mainly on a grudge with his brother, the family solicitor, and a few cabbies he knew and had issues with. After that a might as well hang for a sheep as a lamb spree ensued. He mostly drove about calling people over to his car and then shot at them. Again carried out in a very rural area where a high number of people were likely to have firearms for sport, work, and pleasure.

Both incidents could have been ended early on had Britain a more enlightened view to self-defence.

It's come to something when we have to weigh up the hassle of doing something to promote our own survival or that of others over just going with the accepted flow and hoping we don't get shot in the back or that a moment of mercy might prevail.

Thank you for your very interesting reply.

I'm in 5 different shooting clubs and the smallest (club within a club) typically only has around 10 or 12 people present each Saturday.
We generally spend far more time talking in the club room than shooting. Three of our members are ex-police ....... so any worrying attitudes of our members would soon be spotted.

If I remember correctly, didn't the gun club raise concerns over Ryan ?

[ColinR]

I wonder what the Police (and public) response would have have been, if an FAC holder had shot M. Ryan, as he walked around Hungerford shooting people, for several hours...

I suspect there is not a jury, made up of reasoned men and women, in this land that would give a guilty verdict. While the Police will prosecute one would hope no jury would find the case proven if the act was one of purely protecting the public from a marauding killer whose intent was proven and ongoing.

[ColinR]

Having said that I am pretty certain the Police would react by withdrawing the FAC of anyone they prosecuted and who was found not guilty. In an over regulated world one would need to make a quick decision, do the right thing or protect your FAC.

[Sim G]

There are scores of incidents where a certificate holder has used their firearms or shotguns to defend either persons or property where no prosecutions or sanctions towards certificates have occurred. Each case is regarded on its own merits and if lawful, then no action. Obviously there will be an investigation, but that does not mean it will lead to a charge.

There's a lot of guff being typed here.

[hitchphil]

I recon most properly trained target shooters will be useless in such a scenario even with a gun........... they are trained not to load until on target & they dont use human form targets & the human form is a signal to lower your firearm. - recipe to hesitate & not shoot & ............. oopps too late............

My RPA Gemini looks more like something out of star wars than a firearm & would probably be best used as a club! .... when the armed cops turned up i can hear them now - 'Hey Jedi!.... put the blaster down on the ground with the force!"