Long barreled pistols question

[TattooedGun]

Though I realise this organisation are not seen on favourably by a lot of people here, the NRA State this, which follows what information I have presented, in a much better thought out manner:

Club Free Firearms Certificates and Committee Members
Home Office Approved clubs may, by law, possess a free Firearms Certificate for club use. Excluded from the Club FACs are Long-range Pistols, Long-barrelled Revolvers and Section 1 Shotguns: these 3 categories are not covered by Home office Approval. Home Office Approval covers the three categories: Small-bore Rifle, Full-bore Rifle and Muzzle-loading Pistol, for which clubs may hold a free FAC. Where authorised in writing by the club FAC holder, a committee member may have in his possession club-owned firearms for storage or transportation, such as when the authorised FAC holder is unavailable, such as when he is on holiday or otherwise “indisposed”. That authorised person must already have his own current FAC. The person holding the letter of authority should also have a photocopy of the club FAC in his possession. Small-bore clubs may take advantage of NSRA’s “Exemption Certificate” issued annually by NSRA on request on receipt of a payment to NSRA.

[dromia]

If the gun is on the clubs FAC and the club is Home Office approved then members of that club can use it in relation to club activities.

The issue is that very few clubs have managed to obtain authority to possess LBR/LBPs on the club certificate.

[TattooedGun]

If the gun is on the clubs FAC and the club is Home Office approved then members of that club can use it in relation to club activities.

The issue is that very few clubs have managed to obtain authority to possess LBR/LBPs on the club certificate.

What legislation backs this up?

Home Office Approval is different to Firearm Certificate Approval by police force, and from what I understand Home Office Outranks Police Authority. As is my understanding the Home office certificate does not mention whether rifles used by members are club rifles or members rifles, so I don't see how there would be a distinction between a prohibited firearm on the clubs FAC to one on a members FAC.

[Dorset_shooter]

The Home Office had the chance twice recently to update the Home Office Exemption to include Long Barrelled Pistols and Section 1 Shotguns on the Home Office Exemption but did not, for whatever reason, do so.

As is my understanding after looking into this extensively, it is still forbidden to handle or shoot a long barrelled pistol on club Home Office Exemption, and there are no other ways to do so.

I would suggest that even if Dorset shooter is doing so at their club, by the letter of the law, they should not be.

I have heard of clubs being issued Long barrelled pistols on club certificates, but then I've also seen gross negligence and misinformation being given by firearms teams before now.

I will not comment further on this or get into a debate unless someone can show me where the Home Office Exemption ban on long barrel pistols has been lifted by the Home office, or in legislation, regardless of doing so at XYZ club around the country.

I may well have been mislead by the club I'm a member of, however I doubt very much they are that stupid to risk there livelihood.

Although I don't know enough about the law to argue it.

My local constabulary had nothing to say while I was applying for a lbp on my fac, explaining the fact I used a lbp at my club.

I would never intentionally break the law, both club & local plod have NO issue with what I am doing.

[TattooedGun]

The Home Office had the chance twice recently to update the Home Office Exemption to include Long Barrelled Pistols and Section 1 Shotguns on the Home Office Exemption but did not, for whatever reason, do so.

As is my understanding after looking into this extensively, it is still forbidden to handle or shoot a long barrelled pistol on club Home Office Exemption, and there are no other ways to do so.

I would suggest that even if Dorset shooter is doing so at their club, by the letter of the law, they should not be.

I have heard of clubs being issued Long barrelled pistols on club certificates, but then I've also seen gross negligence and misinformation being given by firearms teams before now.

I will not comment further on this or get into a debate unless someone can show me where the Home Office Exemption ban on long barrel pistols has been lifted by the Home office, or in legislation, regardless of doing so at XYZ club around the country.

I may well have been mislead by the club I'm a member of, however I doubt very much they are that stupid to risk there livelihood.

Although I don't know enough about the law to argue it.

My local constabulary had nothing to say while I was applying for a lbp on my fac, explaining the fact I used a lbp at my club.

I would never intentionally break the law, both club & local plod have NO issue with what I am doing.

I don't doubt that.

I have had experience of members of a firearms department reception staff giving out incorrect information quite blasé and when followed up and spoken to higher management got the correct information. However it does let the genie out of the box and make it quite difficult to then get the correct legislation known to those who have been supplied information from the FEO.

Club Criteria documentation:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... Final_.pdf

It states:

The approval will only cover target shooting with the type or types of firearm listed in the approval. There are three possible categories:

full-bore rifles
small-bore rifles
muzzle-loading pistols

As you can see, it does not state long-barrel pistols, and are therefore not covered by the legislation. You'll note that a type of pistol is mentioned also note the lack of "Shotguns" or any other pistols specified, unfortunately.

Your club may have got hold of a long barrelled pistol from their firearms team on their certificate, but as far as the law is concerned, the only person who can use that firearm, is the person named on the certificate (secretary?). However, the chances of being brought to task by the Home Office, is slim, of the police, less so, since they issued the slot/certificate. However, should the police force wise-up, or suddenly get a Chief of Police who wants to take all guns off the streets, including legitimately owned ones, and they find out about this indiscretion, then perhaps, it could cause trouble.

[Dorset_shooter]

The Home Office had the chance twice recently to update the Home Office Exemption to include Long Barrelled Pistols and Section 1 Shotguns on the Home Office Exemption but did not, for whatever reason, do so.

As is my understanding after looking into this extensively, it is still forbidden to handle or shoot a long barrelled pistol on club Home Office Exemption, and there are no other ways to do so.

I would suggest that even if Dorset shooter is doing so at their club, by the letter of the law, they should not be.

I have heard of clubs being issued Long barrelled pistols on club certificates, but then I've also seen gross negligence and misinformation being given by firearms teams before now.

I will not comment further on this or get into a debate unless someone can show me where the Home Office Exemption ban on long barrel pistols has been lifted by the Home office, or in legislation, regardless of doing so at XYZ club around the country.

I may well have been mislead by the club I'm a member of, however I doubt very much they are that stupid to risk there livelihood.

Although I don't know enough about the law to argue it.

My local constabulary had nothing to say while I was applying for a lbp on my fac, explaining the fact I used a lbp at my club.

I would never intentionally break the law, both club & local plod have NO issue with what I am doing.

I don't doubt that.

I have had experience of members of a firearms department reception staff giving out incorrect information quite blasé and when followed up and spoken to higher management got the correct information. However it does let the genie out of the box and make it quite difficult to then get the correct legislation known to those who have been supplied information from the FEO.

Club Criteria documentation:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... Final_.pdf

It states:

The approval will only cover target shooting with the type or types of firearm listed in the approval. There are three possible categories:

full-bore rifles
small-bore rifles
muzzle-loading pistols

As you can see, it does not state long-barrel pistols, and are therefore not covered by the legislation. You'll note that a type of pistol is mentioned also note the lack of "Shotguns" or any other pistols specified, unfortunately.

Your club may have got hold of a long barrelled pistol from their firearms team on their certificate, but as far as the law is concerned, the only person who can use that firearm, is the person named on the certificate (secretary?). However, the chances of being brought to task by the Home Office, is slim, of the police, less so, since they issued the slot/certificate. However, should the police force wise-up, or suddenly get a Chief of Police who wants to take all guns off the streets, including legitimately owned ones, and they find out about this indiscretion, then perhaps, it could cause trouble.

As said before I wouldn't do anything intentionally illegal.


I guess I should consult the club again.

Does this not apply?


VARIATIONS IN THE TERMS OF THE CRITERIA FOR APPROVAL
It is possible that, exceptionally, the Home Secretary or the Scottish Government may allow some variation of the criteria, or the conditions of approval. He/she must be satisfied that it would be reasonable to do so in the exceptional circumstances which come to his notice.

[dromia]

Regarding the legislation the courts will ultimately decide on its interpretation, there is case law where a club successfully argued that the there was no difference tween a LBR/LBP and a carbine and were allowed to have one on their FAC, I have forgotten the details but I think it was just a one of judgement that did not set precedent and await to be informed further on the detail and my interpretation.

As per the NRA guidance which says that clubs are not allowed to own LBR/LBPs then their HO status does not cover use of said guns except for individual members authorised to possess and use such firearms.

How ever if a club does get a variation for possessing an LBR/LBP then its HO status would allow its use by members.

So until there is better case law on the subject it is open to interpretation and the majority of firearms certification departments will not issue variations to clubs for LBR/LBPs so it is illegal to use such firearms unless authorised to do so on an individuals FAC as they are not covered by a clubs HO status.

[TattooedGun]

Regarding the legislation the courts will ultimately decide on its interpretation, there is case law where a club successfully argued that the there was no difference tween a LBR/LBP and a carbine and were allowed to have one on their FAC, I have forgotten the details but I think it was just a one of judgement that did not set precedent and await to be informed further on the detail and my interpretation.

As per the NRA guidance which says that clubs are not allowed to own LBR/LBPs then their HO status does not cover use of said guns except for individual members authorised to possess and use such firearms.

How ever if a club does get a variation for possessing an LBR/LBP then its HO status would allow its use by members.

So until there is better case law on the subject it is open to interpretation and the majority of firearms certification departments will not issue variations to clubs for LBR/LBPs so it is illegal to use such firearms unless authorised to do so on an individuals FAC as they are not covered by a clubs HO status.

I do recall the argument/case, IIRC it was regarding a Buckmark carbine. A rifle/carbine that is modified. Again, it would or should have made waves in the community, but all it did was allow that one club one on their certificate. Unless as Dorset has pointed out this granted them exception to the home office approval, or they fought for that alongside granting the allowance to have an LBP on their certificate, I'm not sure. but standard Approval rules do not cover LBP/R's, as such I fail to see where the approval suggests that having one on their certificate would authorise its use by members. Otherwise the approval would state that it does Small-bore rifles, full-bore rifles, muzzle-loading pistols and anything contained within the clubs firearms certificate, which it certainly does not. Can you provide a reference which you believe grants this right, based on what's on the police-issued certificate to Home Office Approval?

Dorset, you may be correct as I do not know the exact clubs circumstances, as it mentions, it is an exceptional rule, as opposed to a general rule, and may be the case with your club, alternatively it may be as I've suggested previously. I do not know.

If you speak to the people at your club "in the know" probably the secretary as the FAC is likely in his name, and find out some information, please share as I'd love to find a substantial loophole to open this up to our members, but all I have found so far is legislation making it difficult or impossible as a club to have LBP, and even when you can get one, the wording on the approval does not allow for that type of pistol to be used by anyone except the person who has it on their certificate.

[dromia]

I have no knowledge of the particular clubs FAC but I can see no reason for a certification department issuing a variation for an LBR/LBP unless it could be used by its members, there would be no point in the club having such a gun if no one was allowed to use it.

[TattooedGun]

I have no knowledge of the particular clubs FAC but I can see no reason for a certification department issuing a variation for an LBR/LBP unless it could be used by its members, there would be no point in the club having such a gun if no one was allowed to use it.

You're applying logic to legislation.

Just because that makes sense, doesn't make it law.

Whilst I agree with your principle, from what I can ascertain there is nothing in law which makes this logical sentiment true.

HO Approval still does not apply, even though it is on the clubs certificate, because it is not a Home Office Approved type of firearm.

Only the secretary/Named FAC Holder can handle and use it, unless you have an alternative to Home Office Approval way of sharing firearms, according to legislation.

It's absolutely bonkers, but I cannot find any where from the Home Office where this would not be true, except in exceptional circumstances where the Home Office have specifically named that type of firearm for a certain club. Whether this has happened in these circumstances, I'm not sure.

As always, I am more than happy to be proven wrong (well, not happy because nobody likes being wrong, but it would be more benefit to me than the hurt to my ego), but as far as I can ascertain, logic does not apply outside of verbal agreements, which are not worth the paper they are printed on :(