The UK's Finest Independent Forum for Shooters and Gun Owners. Est 2010.

Yup. Kids having kids.

Yup. Kids having kids.

Exactly.

SevenSixTwo wrote:I agree entirely but good morals don't need to come from a book!

Ironic you post that on Christmas day.....

And in truth, the modern idea of humanistic rights has not improved the moral standing of the country, or even maintained any sort of status quo.

As for not needing the "book", a look at Britain, her traditions, her laws and heritage have a basis soundly rooted in the Old and New Testament.....

Actually the whole thing is true, the speech in it's entirety made the news over here. I'm sure if you look you will find it on youtube.

Blu

Ironic you post that on Christmas day.....

A pagan day, hijacked by faith?

And in truth, the modern idea of humanistic rights has not improved the moral standing of the country, or even maintained any sort of status quo.

I'm not speaking of the EU and their multi-culti, 'I'm a victim', PC rubbish.

As for not needing the "book", a look at Britain, her traditions, her laws and heritage have a basis soundly rooted in the Old and New Testament.....

That may be but humankind needs to rid itself of the ridiculous waste of time and effort of believing in bearded, wish-granting fairies and move forward with decent values (which it can think of for itself) i.e. not relying on ancient scripture (of which so-called 'christians' only select from it the parts that suit them).

I say again: "God" is not what's needed...

SevenSixTwo wrote:That may be but humankind needs to rid itself of the ridiculous waste of time and effort of believing in bearded, wish-granting fairies and move forward with decent values (which it can think of for itself) i.e. not relying on ancient scripture (of which so-called 'christians' only select from it the parts that suit them).

I say again: "God" is not what's needed...

And then there is the argument that it is because society has made the move and actually lacks God, that the spiralling breakdown has gathered such pace.....

That's not an argument, that's pure fallacy.

I would see it more that he recognizes a dilemma that these tragedies are a result of actions by the unstable or by criminals or by psychopaths. That regulation doesn't and cannot affect these groups. That this is a moral and ethical problem which affects society. His moral and ethical framework is built on his faith and an further extrapolation that if everyone had his faith then everyone would exhibit his moral and ethical behaviour.

It is the extrapolation which is false. I feel that he is right that this is a moral and ethical problem within society but I disagree that faith is a prerequisite for, or a necessary route to, moral and ethical behaviour within the whole society.

You do need a framework within society which is acccepted and, unfortunately, enforceable which establishes how people should treat us and how we should treat them. What that framework should be and how to achieve it is the dilemma.

How people come to an understanding that current norms in society should change and how they should change to create something different is difficult, scary and a source of great conflict. Everyone has their views on what needs to be done. None will be completely right, especially if they feel the problems are a black and white distinction between good and bad/right and wrong.

Everyone's view will have some validity and should be discussed but if you want to shout about it back it up with something other than vitriol.

Alpha1 wrote:Good old fashioned values and morality come from your parents and that's the problem now a days.

This I agree with :goodjob:

There is a notion with quotes like this about God, that you don't need Him etc etc. IMHO this, directly, is fair. I don't believe in God per se. However, not believing in God doesn't mean you have no spiritual side.

I think the point that is being made is that society lacks the moral fibre it used to have. This is true around the Western world. Why is not for debate now, but it is lacking. The speech alludes to fixing society being far more important than any gun law, and it is correct.

Many reasons exist for the breakdown, but the lack of respect in modern youth is important. It is a symptom not the root cause of the problem.

Religion is not what it was because science has disproved a lot of miracles over the years. It makes it difficult to believe that God will smite you down if you're bad, and that lack of faith leads to a lack of morals because people don't learn good from evil in a clear defined way any more.

Morals don't just come from a book it is true, i.e. you can be a moral person and not have Faith. However, books contain wisdom. Reading them is a good thing, as is debating the meaning. Because I have studied religion, I can still benefit from its teachings, without direct belief.

How can learning from religious texts be bad? Their morals still hold very true, even if the hocus pocus does not.

Ultimately, Do unto Others as you would have Done unto yourself.

Ram that one home at a young age - I challenge you to be a bad person if you can apply that to your actions.