The UK's Finest Independent Forum for Shooters and Gun Owners. Est 2010.

Blackstuff wrote:

joe wrote:bit off topic, i dont understand why expanding ammo after 97 were put into section 5 (save from vermin control ) there are no more dangerous then FMJ rounds. expanding ammo is designed so that it doesnt go through its target ??
oh i forgot gun control network get their info from silly hollywood films !

Well expanding rounds are more likely to inflict a greater wound channel and therefore could be considered more dangerous to people. It was brought in because the police/media made a song and dance about Hamilton loading the mags of his Browning HP with alternate FMJ/expanding. Doesn't really make a difference when the person is shooting people at point blank range in the head of course

Not quite the full story Blackstuff because around the same time the EU also produced a directive that required all member states to introduce legislation to restrict or carefully control expanding pistol bullets and expanding pistol ammunition.. However some dimwit at the Home Office read this as being all expanding bullets and legislation was rushed through that made all expanding ammunition and bullets section 5. Then when it was realised that expanding ammunition and bullets were a requirement of the deer acts and also used for humanitarian reasons with pest control they had to look again at the legislation and introduce adjustments which was done in the most cack handed of ways as usual. Why on earth they simply didn't put their hands up and say that they had made a mistake and simply put the matter right in the proper way will forever remain a mystery especially bearing in mind that pistols had by now been banned in this country other than for certain uses where in any case expanding ammunition would be the norm anyway.

Thanks for the info There's also the issue/exception with JSP pistol bullets that can be bought for target shooting in tubular magazine rifles (under levers), the whole thing is a joke!

The government admitting they got something wrong with firearms legislation clapclap Good one!

Blackstuff wrote:I can imagine. So as a collector do they have to list every calibre on your FAC with an amount of '1' next to it!?

Well that's the point isn't it?

Technically I guess they should but mine is a blanket coverage of 550 AP, 550 Expanding and 550 Ball between ...blimey...small and 19.2mm.

The only condition is I cannot use any of them in my rifles (AP and Expanding I guess).

This is all live allocation although much to the disgust of the purists I pull or inertify mine. The collection is designed to be handled and I dont want it being locked up or have loads of festering old ammo lying about.

My lot were fine either way but suggested it covered me having the stuff in my possession prior to killing it off.

All that goes on my FAC is anything handed over or sold fully loaded for use in my rifles.

The thing is I have been given AP on several occasions, (once from a batch of .303 that was going down the range at Bisley) where outwardly unless you knew what you were looking for you would not know. Needless to say the lot was rifled and checked before we carried on (found some original Mk8z as well which was a bonus).

Many countries dont colour the tips, or use another colour to black, or it wears off so you would not be sus. In the latter case it was the extra "W" on the case head that gave it away (Wolfram).

I have one for ovenpaa which he will get one day

I was given a .50 API a while back that had to be "Castrated" as it is a no no. Suits me, I now have a .50 with a flip top lid that allows you to see the penetrator. This will come in handy as an oppo of mine (John from Fig14) is giving our cadets the low down on big noisy rifles (.50, Chey-tacs and .338) so they can see what an AP is all about. Not particularly valuable but I dont care much for that and dont sell anything interesting on, just swap or give to other folk that care.

What I do though is to keep a spreadsheet that states where, when, what, markings, notes (Powder type/weight/sealant etc) and whether its Sec 5 or not. Its handy as you can link the rounds to Wikki, manufacturers sites etc.....god what an anorak!!

But no, unless you have a specific technical use for expanding as an anti personal round not over penetrating what's the point? In that role the round is of less importance than the delivery system and the load. 9mm ball will still be lethal, just more likely to pass on through or ricochet. Just look at Subs designed for fully suppressed rifles. The bullets are often a different design (nearer to the Krupps G1) but the charge is way down and irrelevant without the right rifle.

Anyhow...not a busy day again...sorry

Chapuis wrote:

Blackstuff wrote:

joe wrote:bit off topic, i dont understand why expanding ammo after 97 were put into section 5 (save from vermin control ) there are no more dangerous then FMJ rounds. expanding ammo is designed so that it doesnt go through its target ??
oh i forgot gun control network get their info from silly hollywood films !

Well expanding rounds are more likely to inflict a greater wound channel and therefore could be considered more dangerous to people. It was brought in because the police/media made a song and dance about Hamilton loading the mags of his Browning HP with alternate FMJ/expanding. Doesn't really make a difference when the person is shooting people at point blank range in the head of course

Not quite the full story Blackstuff because around the same time the EU also produced a directive that required all member states to introduce legislation to restrict or carefully control expanding pistol bullets and expanding pistol ammunition.. However some dimwit at the Home Office read this as being all expanding bullets and legislation was rushed through that made all expanding ammunition and bullets section 5. Then when it was realised that expanding ammunition and bullets were a requirement of the deer acts and also used for humanitarian reasons with pest control they had to look again at the legislation and introduce adjustments which was done in the most cack handed of ways as usual. Why on earth they simply didn't put their hands up and say that they had made a mistake and simply put the matter right in the proper way will forever remain a mystery especially bearing in mind that pistols had by now been banned in this country other than for certain uses where in any case expanding ammunition would be the norm anyway.

Part of the reason for expanding in hand guns was to give a greater punch from smaller calibres/loads and possibly give better mag capacity. Look at the S&W .40. The .45 ACP does nicely but IIRC did the 1911 mag only take...7? Or was it 11? I am not big on pistols, I shot loads in the mob but was only ever issued the Hi Power.

It took the USMC an age to go onto something else (I must admit I did like shooting the .45 ACP, a really nice controlled thump) as it put you down and you stayed down.

Then look at the situations (particularly in the US) whereby officer dibble is faced by a mullered/bezzed out on PCP or Heroin assailant who may well be armed as well and that punch may well be needed as a standard round might not register. So dibble has angered said felon and said felon can shoot back....they may well miss but that's not the point (particularly if they have exploding underwear!!).

On an oblique, look at the yanks messing with the 5.56 to get M16A2 punch from an M4.... Just use a 7.62x51 and be done with it.

I told you I was bored......

What classification is insendery ammo ? As in 303

mowdy wrote:What classification is insendery ammo ? As in 303

Section 5 !

Might not even be able to hold it under a collectors unless you have a specific condition. I know people do though.

I have had my hands on it in the past, it was disposed of very quickly!

Ovenpaa wrote:I have had my hands on it in the past, it was disposed of very quickly!

It depends on what it does as well.

Modern API is quite safe until you fire it at something, the flash compound is packed between the copper nose and the penetrator.

The old anti Zeppelin stuff could have a small hole in the side covered with solder. This was removed as it passed up the bore exposing the phosphorous filling which promptly burned....which is handy.

Not so handy if you have one in a collection and the seal/solder degrades.

Always fancied one, but not that keen

My shooting buddy found a load of insendry 303 on link from a crash site
Which we fired off we only found out what it was when a club member looked up
The head stamp.
The ammo had laid out in the open on the fell for over 60 years and most still
Went bang!!
Still have a empty case somewhere with a link on it.