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Re: The next French rifle might well be German ...
Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 9:01 am
by froggy
Re: The next French rifle might well be German ...
Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 5:04 pm
by Sixshot6
Fedaykin wrote:It is a nebulous question, one choice could be L85AX. HK can supply new receivers so I don't see why they couldn't supply the guts of the rifle as well. That means we don't have to change all the infrastructure from training aids through to rifle racks. Then again it is a heavy and ergonomically compromised rifle.
So I would agree AR platform is most likely these days, my money would be on Colt Canada C8. It is already in service with UK armed forces and is apparently popular. The documentation is in place for the rifle already and it is known to be a good implementation of the core design. Then again our defence agreement with France could have bearing, operating the same rifle as them has real synergies. Putting in an order at the tale end of production for France could offer real savings, we could even embed troops with the French army beforehand to build up operational experience and doctrine not unlike what we are doing with the F-35 fighter jet by deploying pilots with the USN, USMC and Aeronavale.
Don't be surprised to see the 2025 date pushed to the right, the Army has other expensive stuff to buy and with the reduced size of the forces might get away with pushing it back. A major driver will be sustainability of the rifles, you can only repair them so much before they are too worn out. By all accounts the SLR at the end of their lives were increasingly dangerous to use due to the high round count through them. Also I guess its one we put under how long is a piece of string?
So those are my thoughts and opinions on the matter, sadly anything SA80/L85 has a nasty habit of degenerating into flame war but I am happy to have grown up debates about it.
I'm not interested in a flame war on the matter, we're not the only ones to have used C8's, the Dutch and Danes have too. It seems to make a bit more sense, but pushing to dangerous usage like with the last SLR's does not surprise me either. It was a thought and I guess we'll know when we know.
Re: The next French rifle might well be German ...
Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 5:37 am
by DaveB
"A major driver will be sustainability of the rifles, you can only repair them so much before they are too worn out. "
That's why the NZDF brought the Steyr replacement forward. The cost of a rebuild was just too much, and the rifles were falling apart. Time for a whole new rifle.
Re: The next French rifle might well be German ...
Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 12:24 pm
by HALODIN
The patents for the AR platform have expired now haven't they? If so... and given it's a battle proven platform with excellent ergonomics, why haven't France built their own AR15?
Re: The next French rifle might well be German ...
Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 12:41 pm
by RDC
They probably don't have an industry for it anymore, just like we don't. Make a bull pup no one else wants and the factories will soon close and the skilled folk dispersed to other careers in other industries.
Re: The next French rifle might well be German ...
Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 1:07 pm
by HALODIN
I understand that's why they're in this situation, but it doesn't have to stay that way. They've had time to gear up for it, the design exists, the skills exist, it will decrease unemployment, reduce costs for their military, create another export product and given the way the world's going, I'm surprised they don't want these skills "in house."
Re: The next French rifle might well be German ...
Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 1:19 pm
by polemass
As everywhere..big players in weapons industry divided the market for very own interest?Cars,drugs,rifles,apples-what's the difference?-big fish rule...
Re: The next French rifle might well be German ...
Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 1:21 pm
by HALODIN
That's fine in peacetime, but we're moving away from that at quite a pace.
polemass wrote:As everywhere..big players in weapons industry divided the market for very own interest?Cars,drugs,rifles,apples-what's the difference?-big fish rule...
Re: The next French rifle might well be German ...
Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 2:06 pm
by Fedaykin
Sixshot6 wrote:
I'm not interested in a flame war on the matter, we're not the only ones to have used C8's, the Dutch and Danes have too. It seems to make a bit more sense, but pushing to dangerous usage like with the last SLR's does not surprise me either. It was a thought and I guess we'll know when we know.
Well since I mused about it there have been some interesting developments, firstly the contract for the HK416 is rather different to what I assumed. I assumed the French would go for a big bang model and buy two or three large tranches over a five to ten year period replacing all the rifles as soon as possible. The deal is instead 16,000 units per-annum for thirty years with associated support and spares, that is far more similar to what the Americans do and will mean the FAMAS replacement will be spread over many years with by the end of the thirty year contract the early HK416 being replaced with new ones. This is good news for HK, they were suffering financial problems so now they have a juicy thirty year contract to keep the factory busy.
There are also some interesting developments on the SA80/L85 front, at DVD 2016 an updated version of the L85 was shown. Called the A3 it used a redesigned receiver painted Matt Earth with a new fore-end that replaces the Weaver rail with a Pic rail that extends back onto the receiver allowing dual optics. It is along the lines of what I suggested but does not sort out the weight or ergonomics issues.
Note: this appears to be different from the A3 marked receivers made by HK that were sent out to the Sand Pit to replace worn out A2 receivers. Those were marked by HK A3 but were basically exactly the same as an A2 receiver using the guts of an A2 rifle as a donor.
Re: The next French rifle might well be German ...
Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 7:54 pm
by ordnance
It is along the lines of what I suggested but does not sort out the weight or ergonomics issues.
Sort of says it all about the original design, one of the reasons for the move to 5.56 was a lighter rifle could be designed, with the SA/80 they managed to come up with a heavier rifle than the rifle it replaced. After hundreds of thousands of pounds spent they managed to turn a piece of crap into a usable rifle.