Thames Valley Police Standardised Medical Form

[mag41uk]

I don't actually have a problem with idea - its the implementation of it that sucks.
What would it have taken for the HO and BMA to agree a workable format before rolling it out?

Self vetting/monitoring within the club is at the pointy end and key.
And from my experience on various committees it generally works.

[breacher]

In fairness - while its an extra hoop, I have no objection.

If a crime was committed and several people murdered. Then, afterwards the murderers doctor came forward and said "I was not aware he had a FAC and knowing his medical history, I would have advised against it had I been consulted"...........

My only caveat would be that the police should accept without prejudice, reports from Doctors which are non committal such as "I have not known the patient long enough to comment" or "I am not qualified to say whether he/she is suitable for FAC" etc

Breacher, it won't make any difference. This is yet another hoop that has been created so that people can wash their hands off responsibility if something bad happens. I have spoken to many people who have not been to see their GP for some 20-30 years, maybe some have had a stint in hospital during this period but that is it, how is a GP supposed to comment?

I strongly believe that the only way is peer assessment, that should happen automatically anyway, we all have to be a member of a club, part of the club's responsibility is to keep an eye on the members.

Whether it makes a difference is moot. Though maybe a FOI request in a few years might reveal a nutter or two who might have gotten a FAC had it not been for his GP revealing something about him ?

Once an attrocity takes place, nothing brings back the victims.

But the apportioning of blame begins. And fingers get pointed. This is the Police protecting their backs - pure and simple.

As to peer monitoring - yes, it might weed out overtly barking FAC holders. If the person with concerns can overcome the "grass" feeling of informing the Police. And overcoming the "Stasi / Gestapo" ethos of spying on your neighbour / denouncing them based on subjective hearsay ! And where does that stop ? What about a forum member who talks about shooting any paedophile who touches his kids ? Or states he would shoot anybody who tried to steal his dog ? Or makes aggressive racist comments ? Or is a WALT who wears too much camo and likes shooting humanoid targets depicting a certain arab ? etc etc etc etc

Put pure and simply, if an applicant for a FAC has mental health issues which are not apparent to the casual observer and have never been formally diagnosed BUT are known to a doctor, it is only right and proper that Police are made aware so they make and informed decision / pass the buck / cover their backs.

[stuarta]

I would agree that a doctor should raise concerns if they are a contacted but for TVP to put up another delay in their abysmal and dysfunctional service is unbelievable. I have been waiting two months for my renewal following a letter from them asking me to renew early to ease pressure on the service in 2020. The staff might be working flat out but the Police Commissioner and Chief Constable should be booted out for letting this poor service drag on for so many years.
Oh hang on, Harry and Megan need 30 officers for their protection around their new house, Sir Chief will find the resources for that so he makes sure he is knighted on retirement.

[breacher]

Oh hang on, Harry and Megan need 30 officers for their protection around their new house, Sir Chief will find the resources for that so he makes sure he is knighted on retirement.

It would be foolish to believe anything other than one gets a level of service comensurate with their wealth and social standing.

An unemployed black man on a housing estate dangles a child out of a hotel balcony - arrest, child into care etc etc etc
Pop star does it - headline news and "what a character" etc

You do 40 mph over the limit and its a ban every day of the week. You are a footballer who can afford the right lawyer - case dismissed on a technicality.

You get an egg thrown at you and punch the yob - arrest for assault. You are a politician and punch the yob - no further action.

You are Joe Soap - you dont need an armed police force to protect you. You are a politician or Royal - your entire police department is routinely armed.

You apply for a section 5 - jog on. A multi billionaire asks and hints that he might take his business and 10,000 jobs to France if he does not get it, suddenly has a section 5 for the collection in his basement range in his country mansion.

You take a slight detour in the company van to go and make sexy times with your girlfriend ? Sacked and prosecuted. You are a prince and its a helichopper - no problem, crack on sire !

I could go on.......................

Money will buy you pretty much anything if you have enough of it. Always been the case !

[Pippin89]

I would agree that a doctor should raise concerns if they are a contacted but for TVP to put up another delay in their abysmal and dysfunctional service is unbelievable. I have been waiting two months for my renewal following a letter from them asking me to renew early to ease pressure on the service in 2020. The staff might be working flat out but the Police Commissioner and Chief Constable should be booted out for letting this poor service drag on for so many years.
Oh hang on, Harry and Megan need 30 officers for their protection around their new house, Sir Chief will find the resources for that so he makes sure he is knighted on retirement.

Their security, as with all the royals, is paid for out of the Royal grant which equates to around 15% of the income that they pay into the public purse.... But we wont get into a royal debate on this thread!

Surely the current wording for GP checks are adequate. Unless I am mistaken they state that an application should not be held up if a GP refuses to comment. Surely if a GP had concerns they would voice them and the only reason they wouldn't comment is if they had no concerns but didn't want to leave themselves at risk. In other words no comment means everything is ok. Makes a lot of sense. Have I missed an major news story somewhere of an FAC being granted to someone who turned out to be a nutter who shot up his villiage? You would expect this kind of change after an event like this but as nothing of the sort has happened recently.... if it ain't broke don't fix it.

[Blackstuff]

You haven't missed anything and when the fingers started a-pointing after the Hungerford, Dunblane and Cumbria every 'expert' witness called to answer questions on the subject said that no psychologist/psychiatrist, let alone a standard GP could necessarily predict what someone was going to do the second they left their surgery. 'Major' conditions would already be declared and be a prohibiting factor. I can only assume that this has stemmed from the seemingly erroneous claims in the US trying to link mass shooters with various autism conditions (themselves probably misdiagnosed).

The UK medical profession, AFAIK, have never even had the faintest whiff of culpability when it comes to major shooting incidents that I've observed, this whole thing just stinks of an empire building/money making exercise to me.

[breacher]

You haven't missed anything and when the fingers started a-pointing after the Hungerford, Dunblane and Cumbria every 'expert' witness called to answer questions on the subject said that no psychologist/psychiatrist, let alone a standard GP could necessarily predict what someone was going to do the second they left their surgery. 'Major' conditions would already be declared and be a prohibiting factor. I can only assume that this has stemmed from the seemingly erroneous claims in the US trying to link mass shooters with various autism conditions (themselves probably misdiagnosed).

The UK medical profession, AFAIK, have never even had the faintest whiff of culpability when it comes to major shooting incidents that I've observed, this whole thing just stinks of an empire building/money making exercise to me.

Yes - but what of the patient who has told his doctor several times of depression or anger issues ? Or of suicidal thoughts ? Or is on anti depresant meds ( which if missed would leave him unstable ) etc

Do you want him to be able to get a FAC ?

[Pippin89]

You haven't missed anything and when the fingers started a-pointing after the Hungerford, Dunblane and Cumbria every 'expert' witness called to answer questions on the subject said that no psychologist/psychiatrist, let alone a standard GP could necessarily predict what someone was going to do the second they left their surgery. 'Major' conditions would already be declared and be a prohibiting factor. I can only assume that this has stemmed from the seemingly erroneous claims in the US trying to link mass shooters with various autism conditions (themselves probably misdiagnosed).

The UK medical profession, AFAIK, have never even had the faintest whiff of culpability when it comes to major shooting incidents that I've observed, this whole thing just stinks of an empire building/money making exercise to me.

Yes - but what of the patient who has told his doctor several times of depression or anger issues ? Or of suicidal thoughts ? Or is on anti depresant meds ( which if missed would leave him unstable ) etc

Do you want him to be able to get a FAC ?

But in that case the GP would come forward and say these things. They wouldn't (or shouldn't) refuse to comment if there are known problems!

[stuarta]

Nobody wants a person with mental illness near firearms but as has been said already, in many cases where doctors are being asked to make judgements they have not the clinical training or knowledge of the applicant.
None of the personal friends I have used for references have ever been contacted and I have never been contacted when I have been put down to provide a reference. surely I am better able to judge the mental well being of a friend I see on a regular basis than a doctor who may have not seen a patient for years.
I pay taxes and FAC and SC charges and I take offence when TVP take my money and do not provide the service. Not fit for purpose is a polite way of describing their service and involving doctors is just another way of diverting scrutiny away from this fact.

[mag41uk]

Dr Harold Shipman.
I rest my case.