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MistAgain wrote: How about unanounced visits to holders of 12 of more firearms/shotguns ?
How about unanounced visits to holders of less than 12 firearms/shotguns ?
How about unanounced visits to RFD's ?
There are a few other things that have happened to the legal shooting community in Merseyside that are best not talked about .
But it could be said the people like the PCC are only to happy to have a reduction in firearms .

And in all of those visits, which are actually lawful, was anyone found to be in breech of their certificates or conditions?

Sim G wrote:

Chapuis wrote: Why should they say that?
Unless they perhaps understand that the range or club is about to close for some reason that has so far not been disclosed. This makes me think that there is more to this story than has so far been disclosed.

Home office approval of the club has been withdrawn. If you hold a firearm certificate for target shooting at a HOA and that club no longer has approval, you no longer have good reason, hence the direction given.

I said a couple of pages ago that those members without another club or other conditions that allow their FAC without a club, then join the NRA as quickly as possible. The NRA is a HOA club in its own right. At least then a former APC member could look for another club with not such immediacy....

I phoned the NRA to confirm this. All being equal and nothing crops up to the contrary, I was told this would be seriously worth considering by APC members.

What’s done is done. Should APC return to its former operations, is something that will not happen quickly. Members who did not bring this upon themselves need to protect themselves and their property as quickly and as efficiently as possible.

A real shame that Merseyside Police chose to stipulate an arbitrary time frame though....

But how many certificates have such a non standard condition?
Most certificates for target shooting simply name the nominated main club of the holder and require that adequate insurance cover is provided. Long gone are the days of approved ranges. That went out many years ago and related to the safe certification of the range by the army.

People hold firearm certificates for all manner of good reason, all of them as valid as target shooting. Out of the plethora of guns I own, the only ones that would cause me issue if my clubs all lost their HOA would be my long barrelled and muzzle loading revolvers. But as LBRs are included in HOA, there's actually an argument I could keep that as well!

But that said, you asked the question why were the police telling people to find another club. And that is because their current club has lost its approval. Personally, I think it's fairly straightforward. The sorting of all the sh1t out, is what's going to take the time. And all the while it goes on, the club still won't be approved, hence being told to find somewhere else...

Sim G wrote:

MistAgain wrote: .

And in all of those visits, which are actually lawful, was anyone found to be in breech of their certificates or conditions?

The police seem to think so :
https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/li ... n-14915746

I was actually sat at the club table with one of these RFD's when he took a call to say that the Police were at his place.
Knowing the real situation.... I would say that he was treated very unfairly.

Chapuis wrote:

Sim G wrote:

Chapuis wrote: Why should they say that?
Unless they perhaps understand that the range or club is about to close for some reason that has so far not been disclosed. This makes me think that there is more to this story than has so far been disclosed.

Home office approval of the club has been withdrawn. If you hold a firearm certificate for target shooting at a HOA and that club no longer has approval, you no longer have good reason, hence the direction given.

I said a couple of pages ago that those members without another club or other conditions that allow their FAC without a club, then join the NRA as quickly as possible. The NRA is a HOA club in its own right. At least then a former APC member could look for another club with not such immediacy....

I phoned the NRA to confirm this. All being equal and nothing crops up to the contrary, I was told this would be seriously worth considering by APC members.

What’s done is done. Should APC return to its former operations, is something that will not happen quickly. Members who did not bring this upon themselves need to protect themselves and their property as quickly and as efficiently as possible.

A real shame that Merseyside Police chose to stipulate an arbitrary time frame though....

But how many certificates have such a non standard condition?
Most certificates for target shooting simply name the nominated main club of the holder and require that adequate insurance cover is provided. Long gone are the days of approved ranges. That went out many years ago and related to the safe certification of the range by the army.

Sorry, but this is a standard condition. S44 (I think) Firearms (Amendment) Act 1997 (I know).
Merseyside are being a bit anal in their application of it, but as I understand what's going on they are acting within the law as written.

The NRA will accept as a (probationary) member anyone who holds a FAC for a firearm within the NRAs Home Office Approval (and since the NRA is Approved for everything you can have Approval for, that's not a limitation in practical terms). Phone 01483 797777 x 138. Armed with NRA membership, one can then write to the police and ask to have your FAC reissued with the NRA as the named club under S44. Once that is done the NRA can then exempt you from the requirements of probationary membership. Arguably, this two-step process is not necessary in law, but the NRA (me) wants to avoid dubious positions. You can do this with any HOA club - the NRA is not in a special position except that it has fulltime professional staff to actually think about and come up with valid opinions on this kind of stuff.

Bingo. From the horses mouth...

Iain I can see where you are coming from it's conditions 9 and 10 of the guidance document page 235 -

9. Target Shooting • The *calibre *RIFLE/MUZZLE-LOADING PISTOL/REVOLVER and ammunition shall be used for target shooting, and only whilst a member of *club1, on ranges which are legally and safely constructed and maintained.

1 Insert name of Home Office Approved Shooting Club.

10. Target Shooting – Club Guns • The *firearm and ammunition shall be used for target shooting, and only whilst a member of *club1, and only on ranges suitable for the safe use of that class of firearm and with adequate financial arrangements in place to meet any injury or damage claim.


1 Insert name of Home Office Approved Shooting Club. Very small print at the bottom of the page.

But nowhere on the conditions of my certificate does it actually mention that it has to be a Home Office approved shooting club, it merely gives the name of the club. So the appropriate condition on FAC says;

The firearms and ammunition shall be used for target shooting, and only whilst a member of XXXXXX club and on ranges which are legally and safely constructed and maintained.


There is no small print sub-note anywhere on the certificate or any other form of additional condition specifically requiring me to belong to a Home Office approved club. A club yes, but no mention of it having to be a H.O. approved club. Now it may be an oversight on their part but the way that I understand it when you receive your certificate by signing the certificate you are in effect agreeing to be bound by the conditions on that certificate. You can not possibly be ageing to being bound to a condition that isn't actually there.

HH1 wrote:

Sim G wrote:

MistAgain wrote: .

And in all of those visits, which are actually lawful, was anyone found to be in breech of their certificates or conditions?

The police seem to think so :
https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/li ... n-14915746

I was actually sat at the club table with one of these RFD's when he took a call to say that the Police were at his place.
Knowing the real situation.... I would say that he was treated very unfairly.

From what you said in an earlier post he had ammunition which wasn't safely stored while he was out of the house at the range. Sorry but I can't see the unfair treatment there.

Pippin89 wrote: .

.[/quote]

From what you said in an earlier post he had ammunition which wasn't safely stored while he was out of the house at the range. Sorry but I can't see the unfair treatment there.[/quote]

In defence of this person.... there were 3 people at that address all listed on the RFD licence so it was not as though in was left unattended. The guy used to bring ammo to the club. Often pre-ordered. It seems that in getting ready he inadvertently left some ammo out.

Chapuis wrote: There is no small print sub-note anywhere on the certificate or any other form of additional condition specifically requiring me to belong to a Home Office approved club. A club yes, but no mention of it having to be a H.O. approved club. Now it may be an oversight on their part but the way that I understand it when you receive your certificate by signing the certificate you are in effect agreeing to be bound by the conditions on that certificate. You can not possibly be ageing to being bound to a condition that isn't actually there.

The requirement to be a member of a Home Office approved club is mandated through primary legislation, namely s44(1) Firearms Amendment Act 1997. This is also noted in the latest Home Office Guidance, para 13.49.