The UK's Finest Independent Forum for Shooters and Gun Owners. Est 2010.

All the 'ats, gloves and glasses in the world won't chuck a bullet downrange...

Badger is correct - practice, practice, practice!

There's a saying that someone told me once - "All the gear - no idea". I have a lovely rifle but can't read wind for toffee

That said the jacket is probably the next most important

Oh and Gary Alexander is the current Irish Captain

IainWR wrote: If you are really serious, £700 on a SCATT electronic training system will do far more for your shooting than 1000 rounds down the range if you use it diligently - ie every day, to a consistent schedule, thinking about what works and what doesn't and changing one thing at a time to see if it gains anything.

Is that like the the one gathering dust in the attic? :lol:

That may be why Steve E is on the Palma Squad and I'm not.

IainWR wrote:Badger, you are a heretic

While there is much to be said for your own gun and loads of practice, most club rifles are at least vaguely adjustable to fit. Specs, jackets and gloves are highly individual fit items, and most clubs wouldn't think to spend the sort of money on a scope that is needed to let you read mirage at 4pm on an overcast day.

If you are really serious, £700 on a SCATT electronic training system will do far more for your shooting than 1000 rounds down the range if you use it diligently - ie every day, to a consistent schedule, thinking about what works and what doesn't and changing one thing at a time to see if it gains anything. Shooting is like every other elite activity; the more you practice, the luckier you get.

I think I'm scared now. Let's remember that a couple of years ago the Queen's prize was won in a borrowed jacket, and that lots of people shoot to an exceptionally high level with kit that is 'nothing special'; lots of them with rifles that are 20 or 30 years old. Scatt systems and Leica scopes may help the best of the best wring the last few 10ths of a percent out of their performance, but what this chap needs is some basic & reliable kit that he can call his own, and then range-time, range-time, range-time, and frankly, unless he is on a very large budget, the best way to achieve lots of range time (so you are learning the black art of wind, as well as positional technique) is to obtain the capability to make very good rounds of ammunition for 35p instead of £1.00. But that's another story.

..

He could do far worse than to trundle up to the firing point with a K31 and bucketful of GP11...

Good point about the homebrew customization, as much as I do like the idea of shiny and new and infinitely adjustable I could probably make a removable cheek rest of some description if I need to.

The current supply of 50p club ammo (which is good but not match grade) is dwindling, hopefully the next batch won't be so much more expensive. I shot 60 on Sunday and it cost me £60 all in. The club calendar averages about one shoot a month, I'd be up for doing it more frequently, maybe through the NRA shooting club?

I'm definitely interested in coming down to see what the elite shooters get up to :)

rox wrote:
I think I'm scared now.
..

OK

At every level you need some innate ability and some practice and some kit.

If you are seeing fuzzy eggs at 600x, all the ability in the world will not help until you have a set of corrective lenses that get you a workable sight picture.

Once you can see the target properly, you can start exploring what works in other ways.

After that, a decent jacket is worth points, and in LH there is little point in exploring the racks to try to find one off the shelf - there simply aren't any on the shelf. I would say that if you want serious performance a fitted jacket is much more important than any mechanical item that can be adjusted with tools.

My first rifle is 27 years old. It is on its fourth barrel, second stock, second foresight, second rearsight and third trigger, but it's the same rifle - honest!

My second rifle is 11 years old, and is original except for the barrel (its third).

If the simple case is that you cannot shoot consistently (ie most of us), then practice is the key, and given that good .308" ammo comes at over 50p/bang even if you build it yourself and forget the cost of tools and labour, there is a lot to be learned for much less money with either a .22" or a SCATT.

Some people have huge amounts of innate ability. Parag Patel won the Canadian Grand Aggregate aged 18. From that it's not exactly surprising that he is routinely on the World Championship team and represents England at Commonwealth level. Lots of people will never make these levels, and there is a big trade between kit and training in trying to approach them. But I think its valid to point out what can be done, and in terms of return on investment with shots down the range at over £1 each when all costs are factored in, some bits of kit are well worth the money.

Iain

GP11 ammo is pretty good stuff, and a K31 is cheap...

http://carteach0.blogspot.co.uk/2009/01 ... lance.html

mackie wrote:Thanks for the replies. I was hoping to pay no more than about £2,500 with sights but that may be a little optimistic. I'm a lefty which makes second hand purchasing a little more challenging too I suppose. I'm not in a great rush but I would like to get something that fits me better - I'm currently resting my jaw on the stock rather than my cheek.

Hi Mackie,

Sorry for the delayed reply, but work has been busy and cutting into my time spent thinking about shooting! You should be able to get yourself set up with a basic bit decent TR set of kit for £2500 IMHO.

Firstly, buy secondhand. I shot secondhand Swing Mk. IIIs from 1993 until 2012 (including 2 Commonwealth Games, 3 GB Tours and all of the 'Big 5' matches) when I finally gave in and bought a brand new Barnard. Pick up a good quality Swing Mk. IV or later, RPA or Barnard and get rebarelled if it needs it (push very hard on price if it does and don't be afraid to walk away from the deal. You've got plenty of time before the start of the next season if you start now.) To get the most bang for your buck buy through a private sale with advice from someone who knows what they're talking about; too many gunsmiths (and a certain shop on Bisley Camp) seem to expect to be able to charge through the nose for secondhand rifles for very little added value. They also then wonder why they can't then sell them.

Hints and Tips:
1) Don't buy a metal stock (sorry Iain!) they cost a lot of extra cash and unless you're still growing you won't give you any added value
2) Do not buy a rifle with a barrel of less than 30" if you don't intend to change it anyway
3) Buy a rifle with a basic adjustable foresight if you can, you'll want one anyway and they cost a fortune these days new (not a deal breaker, as you can always pick up a secondhand 18mm adjustable RPA foresight)
4) Check the sights for backlash (set to zero. Wind on 10 mins right. Wind back 10 mins left. If it's not pointing to zero, then the sights backlash. Repeat for elevation.)
5) Have the seller take the action and trigger guard out of the bedding. Inspect for cracks. If there are any, knock off £90 for a bedding job or don't buy
6) Have the seller put the action and trigger guard back in the bedding and press in hard. Tighten up the bedding screws. Slacken off one bedding screw. If the trigger guard looks like it is moving as the tension is released or the bedding creaks, knock off £90 for a bedding job or don't buy (rare but does happen)
7) Don't buy a Swing earlier than Mk. IV or one with a round cocking pin. Great rifles, but they're all really different and parts are getting scarce
8) Don't buy anything other than a Swing, Paramount, RPA or Barnard. Someone who tries to tell you that a Remington or Musgrave is just as good is wrong
9) Look at the buttplate. If the checkering is worn, then knock off £30 for a new buttplate
10) Take pictures of the rifle, post them here and ask for advice on what it's worth!

On top of this, you'll need a bunch of other kit: scope, jacket, sling, glove, hat, mat. With the exception of the jacket most of this can be picked up secondhand for (a lot) less than new, borrowed, had off eBay or cobbled together. It is really worth spending a little more getting a jacket which fits you well though.

This set of kit will take you through to top end of county or bottom end of GB level TR shooting.

Good luck!

Gaz

PS - Re-read this an am obviously feeling very dictatorial today. Hey ho...