The UK's Finest Independent Forum for Shooters and Gun Owners. Est 2010.

GeeRam wrote:

Fedaykin wrote:My view is a number of nations came to similar conclusions about intermediate calibre rifles and it is wrong to say one nation is the defacto designer of the concept.

Correct.

A lot of countries dabbled in the idea at various points in time from during WW1 onwards (Austria, France, UK, Italy, Switzerland as well as the Soviets and USA)
In fact, it was info supplied to the German DWM in the late 20's by the Swiss that started Germany down the intermediate cartridge route.
So, yes, while everyone dabbled in the theory on and off without taking it to full in-service use, it can't be argued against the fact that it was Germany that got there first in terms of use in service, with the 7.92x33 in the early years of WW2.
It was a German MKb 42 (H) in 7.92x33, which had been captured while undergoing troop trials as well as the M1 Carbine provided to the USSR by the USA that prompted the 15th July 1943 meeting of the Technical Council of the People’s Commissariat for Armament (NKV) to discuss these new foreign service calibres.

The Soviets certainley then took it to another level entirely though.

Agreed

breacher wrote:It is a Type 3.

With a type 2 magazine.

And a type 2 gas tube too.

The Type 1 pistol grip is very distinctive - no metal mounting "cup" and more raked. You would notice it !!

Foresight looks type 3 though. Cannot see position of front sling loop so cannot confirm that one.

A few years back I went through 2000 AKs - my job was to use a reference book to sort them into country of origin and variant.

I found two type ones amongst them and was given a Saiga as a "thank you" for spotting them !

During that contract, I set myself the goal of test firing one AK from every country who ever made one ( including a Khyber Pass ) and managed it. The East German milled receiver variant was the most accurate closely followed by Chinese Type 56-2.

Its amazing how many "differences" there are between type 1, 2, 3 and AKM !!

After Froggy posted that close up pic I can see you are indeed correct correct, it is a Type 3 ...... Not sure on the gas tube front as hard to tell.
Early production Type 3's did often have some Type 2 parts fitted, the Russians didn't like to waste anything if they could help it.

Fedaykin wrote:
Funny factoid early US army literature classified the AK47 as a sub machine gun...

The Russian military class the AKs-74u as a sub machine gun despite it using an intermediate cartridge.

The Russian military class the AKs-74u as a sub machine gun despite it using an intermediate cartridge

Correct, same for the Germans. MP-43 stands for Maschinenpistole, ie : SMG. The term "sturmgewher" was according to various sources or rumours, only a way to get Uncle Dodolph to either approve the project or for propaganda reasons.

froggy wrote:The Russian military class the AKs-74u as a sub machine gun despite it using an intermediate cartridge

Correct, same for the Germans. MP-43 stands for Maschinenpistole, ie : SMG. The term "sturmgewher" was according to various sources or rumours, only a way to get Uncle Dodolph to either approve the project or for propaganda reasons.

Not quite.

Hitler would not approve any R+D into semi auto rifles. He felt the bolt action was all that was needed.

MP43 was chosen to disguise the project. Because R+D into SMGs was approved. The project dates back to 1942 when it was designated MKb ( machine carbine ) but was renamed MP43 for admin purposes only.

It was renamed in 44 after Hitler found out about it, apparently after asking a soldier what was needed. He replied "More of those semi auto rifles". Or so the story goes..........

Re-
Hitler would not approve any R+D into semi auto rifles
The German army had actually looked extensively into SA rifles and adopted the G41 and K43 not to mention the FG42 (granted, it was a niche mkt gun going through the LW and not the WH supplies channels). Anyway, as far as the Stg-44 is concerned, indeed, the sequence is, 1st, "light carbine" Mkb 42 at the development stage, then SMG (MP-43), then finally STG.
A lot a conflicting stories as how the name "Sturmgewehr" and to a certain degree the name of the round as well (Pistolenpatrone M43 but developped pre-war) was coined & I realy dont know which one is the conclussive one

Anyway, this statue was long over due & thanks very much to Mikhaïl Kalashnikov for giving the world such an amazing tool in order to voice more efficiently the democratic concerns of the masses since "1947"

Yes - I should have qualified that - he did not approve of a semi auto to REPLACE the bolt action.

Of course the concept of adding them to existing rifles was considered. As was issue to specialists like paratroops though they retained the bolt action even when some semi autos were issued. Hitler was no fan at all of the kurz cartridge concept !

And yes - quite right to honour Mikhail - regardless of exactly how much politics / propaganda was a factor, he was chosen to head up the project and deserves recognition for what was an amazingly sucessful result.

In short the AK platform gave 100% rewhat it was designed for. And continued to do so for decades !! It will still be in service in 2047 somewhere.

Interesting aside - Mikhail was once given a hands-on demo of the SA80. He inspected it thoroughly. Asked what all the controls were etc. He then chuckled and said something to himself. When his daughter who was acting as interpreter was asked she said "He says you must have very intelligent and highly educated soldiers -the rifle is so complicated ! "

This was related to my ex-boss by the daughter when he met Mikhail.

"A monument to a Russian creator of the world famous AK-47 assault rifle unveiled in Moscow is to be changed because a weapon depicted on the statue is actually a German-designed firearm.

Mikhail Kalashnikov's monument was opened this week to great fanfare by government officials and members of the Russian Orthodox Church.

But arms experts say a drawing on the base of the statue shows the StG 44 rifle used by the Nazis during WWII.

They say this will be now corrected.

"A mistake has been made by the sculptor, and he is already there dismantling this plate with the StG drawing," executive director of the Russian Military Historical Society Vladislav Kononov was quoted as saying by Russian news agencies."

Full story here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41367394

I well thought you had gone to the effort of writing a fake article taking the mick out of this thread, then the link would take us to a genuine article about how Alan Titchmarsh has been caught with his hose pipe in somewhere it shouldn't.