The UK's Finest Independent Forum for Shooters and Gun Owners. Est 2010.

There's nothing you'd seriously consider using for home defence that will exit your house through a wall. See here for an example of some extensive testing.

that just leaves the doors, windows and internal walls

I don't know what your house is like, but in my house I could shoot just about any angle I might want from my bedroom door (straight out, down the hall towards stairs, at the head of the stairs) or from the top of the stairs downwards without having a bedroom under the muzzle. Here's some typical three bedroom semi layouts:





As you can see, all three bedrooms are clear with regards other bedrooms for shooting straight out the door or at the stairs. Equally, you can shoot down the stairs. In the first layout, only bedroom 2 has to worry about windows (the one at the top of the stairs). In the second, bedroom 3 is pretty safe but 1 and 2 need to think about it. But the window isn't necessarily a problem - it depends what's outside. For example, from the master bedroom in my house, shooting at the landing window would send pellets into the side of my neighbour's brick house. For penetration to be an issue you'd need 1) spots you're likely to be shooting from and to, to match up with a window and 2) for that window to match up with an opening on a neighbouring building and 3) that's a window to a bedroom. And even if that is the case which I doubt it is for most people, will birdshot be stopped by two windows? I honestly don't know so perhaps this calls for some testing!

If you do have a major issue with firing from or at the doorway, there is the option to shoot across it instead. If you have adequate room to position yourself on one side of the door, and there is a relatively safe area to shoot at on the opposite side, then you can wait there. For example, in my old house, firing straight on at my bedroom door would have sent rounds into the bedroom opposite, but firing across the door would put rounds into the airing cupboard.

As for lethality, here are some real world birdshot wounds at ranges estimated from 3, 7 and 15 yards:

(SERIOUSLY GRAPHIC)

******************************
*****************************
***************************
**************************
*************************
************************
***********************
**********************
*********************
********************
*******************
******************
*****************
****************
***************
**************
*************
************
***********
**********
*********
********
*******
******
*****
****
***
**
*

***
**
*







You can see how shallow these wounds are. None are physically man-stopping. You might fall down because of the pain or psychological shock of being shot, but this is not very common in gunshot victims who are aware they are being shot at (as an attacker would probably be).

This is a coyote taken with buckshot at range:



He was shot on his right side, the pellets travelling completely through the torso and logding in the ribcage on his left side (top). One pellet shattered his leg completely (bottom). Here you can see remote wounding done to his liver:



And here (skinned and decapitated) you can see the enormous internal bleeding:

I think you may be taking this a touch too seriously :P

I am pretty certain most people couldn't hit a human size target with a handgun at 30 yrds

..But is the target a seriouws threat at 30 yards..

All those ballistic gel tests simulate a naked body. None are dressed in say a lewather jacked or heavy cooat, all of which are capable of stopping bird shot before it penetrates and in some cases even a 45ACP.

Any gun is better than no gun and yes, in Arizona certainly your neighbour can be next door..especially in timer frame hoses or cabins...LOL.

The topic is certainly one that has great debate potential for sure but let's remeber the good ol FBI stats re gunfights: 3 shots, 3 meters and 3 seconds!

I have shot pistol at 10/15/25/35m and at 50m I personally would not expect to place anymore than 7/10 shots in a body centre mass, probably less and that is being prepared. I will give this a try a bit later this year with the 9mm and report back.

Has anyone else had to pull out a pistol for defence? I did on one occassion in NI and was thankful i didn't need to use it - i'd much rather have had a shotgun or even a rifle. Thing about the pistol is confidence. Some crim enters my home, i want to put that crim down and make sure he'll never get up. With a shotgun and decent load i have that confidence.

45ACP in a handgun was supposed to be the man stopper in close quarters...guess you had a 9mm...put a hole right thru more often than not but would not nessarily stop perp...or so the story goes re US Police and drug crazed nutter...didn't have much experience in high finance. :)

Robin128 wrote:45ACP in a handgun was supposed to be the man stopper in close quarters...guess you had a 9mm...put a hole right thru more often than not but would not nessarily stop perp...or so the story goes re US Police and drug crazed nutter...didn't have much experience in high finance. :)

No Rob, not strictly true. On paper and in practical usage, the military 9mm ball performs better than military .45 ACP ball.

On paper, 9mm 2Z (when it was made by RG and not POF Pakistan) it launched a 124gn bullet at a nominal 1250fps. (1350 out of an MP5) for 430 ft/lbs. Military .45 ball launches a 230gn bullet at a nomnal 850 fps for 368 ft/lbs.

Marshall and Sanow, two US cops/researchers/writers have conducted years of collecting and analysing data from actual shootings by both civilians and police. In their research they have discovered that 9mm ball edges out .45 ball in performance on criminals. When both are loaded with premium bullets, the .45 edges out he 9mm.

The .45 v 9mm argument is usually virilant in the US for a number of reasons. Firstly, a very large proportion of shooters couldn't get over the dropping of the 1911 for the M9. This was regarded as the most un-patriotic of acts. 45 had been their military's sidearm caliber since 1873 (save for a few years with a .38 Colt). Secondly, when the US police agencies went over to 9mm, most adopted a 115gn load which in no way compared to the caliber that most had just dropped, the perfect fight stopper in the .357 magnum 125gn JHP. Results of the 9mm dropped considerably when compared.

To counter this, the 147gn subsonic 9mm load was devised, going with the "slow and heavy" ideal for the calber. Again, this load failed. Gun press and everyone jumped on it. Since then, .40 S&W came about as the panacea and others, riding the wave, went to .45. Results in actual shootings improved. This just fuelled the theory that the 9mm was indeed inferior.

The fact is today, 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 are loaded with premium bullets and the best powders. All perform fairly equally in street shootings. But in ball, 9mm outs the other two......