Attention all MARS & Lever release owners

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Dellboy
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Re: Attention all MARS & Lever release owners

#21 Post by Dellboy »

Airbrush wrote:
Dorset_shooter wrote:Sorry you feel that way, could you please answer my questions regarding the number of disabled vs not using mars/lever release rifles. At this point I'll take your argument seriously, and if I don't take it seriously do you really believe a government wanting to ban all firearms will???

I await your statistics.
Lol, you know I can’t answer that & neither can the government.

Actually i think the government could answer that as the licensing authorities have access to medical records now dont they ?
So could a freedom of imformation not reveal the answers ?
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Re: Attention all MARS & Lever release owners

#22 Post by Lancs Lad »

toffe wrapper wrote:Dorset shooter

Their is a name for people like you

Jack ****

MP's mention disabled shooters in the debate as is the NRA. And is just one of many valid objections.
Your how many are affected question can be answered as, every single disabled person. Who may have wanted to shoot but could not because these types of rife are not available to them.

I guarantee a type of firearm you own was used by the IRA so what's to stop them banning that as its was a terrorist weapon.
thin end of the wedge.

My MP is pro shooting and will be attending a club shoot so will get to use a nasty black leaver release so he can form a opinion based on real evidence.
At least I am doing something, doing nothing is the nimby way.
Toffe ... That's a bit off mate!

DS is making a valid point. The case for retention of MARS / Lever release firearms is there, but it is very weak and requires significant bulking up if there is any chance of it succeeding. The 50 cal case has been well orchestrated by the FCSA and clearly, the MP's who spoke in it's defence have been contacted and briefed by knowledgeable people.
Like DS, I've written countless letters / emails and had a face to face with my MP on this firearms issue who, I'm glad to say is very supportive. However, being a practical kind of guy I'm fully aware that the show isn't over until the fat lady sings.

I fully understand people's frustration regarding this issue but calling another forum member names is not going to do anything. Let's keep it civil.

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Re: Attention all MARS & Lever release owners

#23 Post by Christel »

If I was to take side in this thread it would be with DS, we have to take a different approach to the overall firearms situation in order to make a difference.

The argument about being disabled, by all means roll it out and use it, write to your MP however if the attitude in society does not change it will make no difference whatsoever.

National organisations, they are trying to take the fight however if people higher up won't listen or are against shooting then they are fighting a loosing battle.
The UK does not have a strong shooting lobby, this goes back in history a long way.

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Re: Attention all MARS & Lever release owners

#24 Post by Blackstuff »

I think what many shooters, not necessarily on this forum, are missing is the general principle and catestrophic precendent this bill would have if it went through. Banning firearms on the "off chance a criminal or terrorist MIGHT be able to get their hands on them, and MIGHT use them to harm/kill people". This is a significant departure from any firearms legislation that has gone before it which has been on the whole a response to a one off event.

Make no mistake, if this is passed civilian firearms ownership is truly finished in this country for anyone who doesn't have an absolute NEED for one. Sport/competition/casual pest control is not a need.
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Re: Attention all MARS & Lever release owners

#25 Post by Christel »

Blackstuff, I agree, well said.
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Re: Attention all MARS & Lever release owners

#26 Post by dromia »

Loosing because of lack of leadership and organisation at a national level.

The 50 cal shooters are making a good case and they provide the grit for shooters to come behind, the poor lever release owners don't have that focussed Club to help them.

This is the role that the "national" bodies should be taking but yet again they fail us, they should at the very least be putting forward the case for the lever release and doing the research necessary to substantiate that case so that legal gun owners can then make informed submissions and petition their MPs with.

Whatever the outcome it will be without the help of those that should be helping us, it is damning that the main lead on this has had to be a gun club.

Gun owners want to do their bit, they just need help and advice. The National bodies memberships are their greatest resource but they refuse to use and mobilise it in the interests of those very members. It is just like the pistol ban when the the "national" bodies just left the pistol ours out to dry as it didn't effect their core self interest.

Until such time as their is a pro-active and aggressive national organisation championing the cause of legal gun ownership in the UK then our days are limited.

The most galling thing is that the HO minions are obviously not fit for purpose, their reasoning and "evidence" is spurious and unfounded and a good well founded argument will drive a coach and horses through their policy. The 50 cal people have done that but the lever release owners are shafted because they lack that organisation and leadership. This whole discipline/gun type approach to British gun ownership is our greatest weakness it divides and undermine the one common thing that joins all shooters, legal gun ownership. A threat to one type is a threat to us all but narrow vested interest always seems to come to the fore. The HO antis know this weakness and exploit it as we see here with these proposals but we do nothing structurally or organisationally to meet this threat. Once they get their way with banning one type with their specious arguments they will continue and chip away at other types and we will have allowed them to set that precedent.

If these proposal go through it will directly detrimentally effect all legal gun owners in the UK.

No unified robust leadership, no fight.
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Re: Attention all MARS & Lever release owners

#27 Post by breacher »

I think the "reasoning" they are using is different - with the high energy it is the "what if" scenario. With lever release / MARS its the rate of fire / alleged circumvention of the spirit of existing legislation.

In my opinion its easier to fight the former as its crazy to prohibit something based on what has never happened but might happen !

The people who designed the lever release and MARS always knew that it was going to be tested at some point. As did the buyers. The test however is not a court case ( that would be easily won as they are compliant with the letter of the law ) but new legislation.
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Re: Attention all MARS & Lever release owners

#28 Post by Blackstuff »

breacher wrote:I think the "reasoning" they are using is different - with the high energy it is the "what if" scenario. With lever release / MARS its the rate of fire / alleged circumvention of the spirit of existing legislation.

In my opinion its easier to fight the former as its crazy to prohibit something based on what has never happened but might happen !

The people who designed the lever release and MARS always knew that it was going to be tested at some point. As did the buyers. The test however is not a court case ( that would be easily won as they are compliant with the letter of the law ) but new legislation.
Do you have any documentation/videos of discussion of that? I've not heard it mentioned in anything i've read/seen in relation to the proposed legislation. The only typem i've seen even the remotest mention was briefly in the FELWG minutes which went no where.
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Re: Attention all MARS & Lever release owners

#29 Post by JSC »

Blackstuff wrote: Do you have any documentation/videos of discussion of that?
Do you mean the part about them trying to circumvent the existing law?

This is from the original consultation document:

"We are also proposing to prohibit ownership of rapid firing rifles, such as the VZ 58
Manually Actuated Release System (MARS) rifle, which can currently be purchased by
anyone who has a firearms certificate authorising them to possess a centre-fire rifle in one
of the relevant calibres. While a rifle of this nature is capable of a rapid rate of fire, there is
uncertainty about whether they can or should be defined as a self-loading rifle of a kind
already prohibited under section 5 of the Firearms Act 1968 because a second pull of the
trigger is required to discharge a round. Nevertheless, the rate of fire is significantly
greater than a conventional bolt-action rifle and recognising the intention of the Firearms
Act to prohibit civilian ownership of semi-automatic firearms and the risk that they would
pose if they were to get into the wrong hands, we consider it appropriate to subject rifles of
this type to the controls of section 5 of the Firearms Act 1968."

But as to where the initiative originated to look at them, that was very obviously from outside the Home Office.
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Re: Attention all MARS & Lever release owners

#30 Post by David TS »

JSC wrote:
Blackstuff wrote: Do you have any documentation/videos of discussion of that?
Do you mean the part about them trying to circumvent the existing law?

This is from the original consultation document:

"We are also proposing to prohibit ownership of rapid firing rifles, such as the VZ 58
Manually Actuated Release System (MARS) rifle, which can currently be purchased by
anyone who has a firearms certificate authorising them to possess a centre-fire rifle in one
of the relevant calibres. While a rifle of this nature is capable of a rapid rate of fire, there is
uncertainty about whether they can or should be defined as a self-loading rifle of a kind
already prohibited under section 5 of the Firearms Act 1968 because a second pull of the
trigger is required to discharge a round. Nevertheless, the rate of fire is significantly
greater than a conventional bolt-action rifle and recognising the intention of the Firearms
Act to prohibit civilian ownership of semi-automatic firearms and the risk that they would
pose if they were to get into the wrong hands, we consider it appropriate to subject rifles of
this type to the controls of section 5 of the Firearms Act 1968."

But as to where the initiative originated to look at them, that was very obviously from outside the Home Office.

You've seen my post, second one down on page 110 of the 'New laws coming' thread?


ACPO FELWG minutes from the meeting on 05 February 2015:

8. NABIS Update

c. Recent attacks in France
Martin Parker provided an update on questions that had come out of the recent incidents in France.

Action: Martin Parker to review classification with regards to the MARS rifle
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