The UK's Finest Independent Forum for Shooters and Gun Owners. Est 2010.

Sim G wrote:

kennyc wrote:I am yet to be convinced that the full cost recovery route is really the best way (although I suspect some FLD's are deliberately creating a cost overrun to "prove " their point, and I suspect the lack of resources is due to funds being redirected/not assigned)
Until all Police Firearms Depts work in line with the best performing Depts I see no reason why we should be forced to pay more money into a financial black hole!

"Deliberately creating a cost overrun" is the last thing that is happening. It is simply a matter of there is too much work for too few people to keep on top of effectively. Firearms licensing is not the only area to suffer. Unfortunately, the public aren't really aware of the scale of the cuts that have happened and those that are still to come!

My own force, Kent, has already had its budget slashed by 20% since 2010. We have lost 500 Constables and 1000 support staff. But, that work that was being done by them hasn't gone away, all you have is less people trying to do so much more. And when the PCC and Chief sit down to decide where the budget is to be spent, how high up that chain do you reckon firearms licensing is? Couple with the plans to have to cut the budget by another £61 million by 2019, it's not looking good at all.

And you think that renewals/grants/variations even come close to paying for it? No way. I've just had my cheque for £65 for coterminous renewal of FAC and SGC cashed. At the same time I've just received my temporary permits under s7. Considering all of the details of a s7 permit have to be entered manually, checked, approved then sent out, my 65 quid is probably used up already. The police will now be "out of pocket" renewing my certificates.

There are 28000 certificates in Kent. A renewal of each (forgetting discounts for coterminous etc) will generate £1.4 million over the five years of validity. On average, 107 certificates need to be renewed every week, generating just over five grand. How many staff do you get for five grand a week? Not many. Granted, fag packet economics, but you get the idea.

first I don't think full recovery is the same as the current charge, I am not in favour of full recovery as it is not a service to us that is being paid for, it is a service that is for the benefit of the general population.
Obstructive practices are by their nature difficult to identify from outside and when a Dept cuts its staff by 30% at a time of predictably high useage as mine has done then I feel it is justifiable as an outsider to ask whether there are ulterior motives to the cuts.
I understand about the financial restraints and cutbacks, I also understand that if you move to a system that relies on doubling or tripling the amount of paperwork involved then you are never going to bring the job in on time or budget!
It would seem that there is a massive difference between Depts that work and those that don't, and this is at the heart of the problem, if some can do it then why not others?
I have no idea how much time it takes to process an FAC renewal or variation so will work with your "fag packet" sums, but I would guestimate around 10 staff based on £25K annually (based on TVP advertisement for experienced staff) I have not factored in the costs of building power phones etc as I have no idea what they would be (bear in mind they are shared resources in part)
I am not knocking the individual FEO's in my opinion they are caught in the middle, however multiplying workloads and creating extra hoops to jump through doesn't help.

In respect of cuts to police budgets, when was the last time you saw a traffic car making stops of vehicles that had defects, when i was younger a "7 day notice " was a common occurence in my circle for faulty lights defective exhaust etc. From what I see it just doesn't happen anymore. You just have to drive at night and see the number of defective vehicle lights to see its not happening, let alone trying to deal with handheld mobiles etc. There's anecdotal evidence that some forces use post codes to decide how far they go when it comes to dealing with fixed penalties and automated fines, the theory being those in some areas will evade the system as far as possible and the costs involved chasing them tie up too many resources.
Ask your local petrol station how many "drive aways" they have, local shops about shoplifting etc etc, you'll be unpleasantly surprised. There are insufficient resources or willingness to deal with it all, but its not really a problem as the prices include a percentage to cover the losses.
The same goes for council tax arrears and water bill debts. Live in an area that suggests you'll not cooperate and are unlikely to have easily seized assets, you'll get away with it. The average paid water bill has a portion to cover bad debts allowed by law. The days of not paying for water and just about automatically having a ccj against you are fading fast.
The majority of us will over time will end up finding ourselves paying a bit more for all sorts of things as budgets are squeezed and all public services have to do more with less. This just happens indirectly as putting up taxes is politically disasterous for who ever is in power. So we all have to work harder for longer to benefit for less in return.
A recent article estimated that the UK had an imbedded national investment of around £130k per head of population, so if you reckon with immigration and natural population growth of say 500k a year the nation would need to spend around an extra 65 billion a year on infrastructure just to maintain standards. Let alone make up for previous lack of investment. Given the maths we should be thankful we get what we do.

Does anyone know if G4S are running any firearms licensing offices? I heard a rumour..................

Pete