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Personally I have muzzle brakes on my AI AT (.308), Ruger PR (6.5CM) and Steyr Aug (.223) because I feel that they provide a benefit whilst shooting: also on the .22LR's for fun.

Some Muzzle Brakes are antisocial & on 0.22! totally unnecessary? I would like to see them banned on mixed discipline ranges / events.

CSR & McQueens are different they are separated on the range & many are using all types of equipment side by side, they enjoy what they do & annoy few, if any doing it. I am quiet happy with users on a more remote part of the range with them, leave half a butt clear, but on busy days those that want to use them can pay for those unused lanes please.

Dissipators, moderators & flash hiders are not a problem either, they emit less concussion / sound than a plain muzzle. I hear a suppressor on a brake is equally effective at reducing recoil. So there is a means to allow say medically needs shooters to participate too.

I have seen people use benches & mats to create a barrier & reduce the effect on adjacent lanes but they are ignorant of the sound problem for upto 40 feet 45 degrees either side behind them! thats when i & others will ask politely to take it off the FP, the usual indignant responses & we call the range office, and I suspect many fed up with them shooters & RCOs at Bisley will be doing so more in future too. Attitudes from the likes of Mr Stimson will harden the responses of RCOs & other range users who's enjoyment is affected by selfish use.

At Bisley the NRA's one clear lane rule isn't & cant be properly enforced, nor is it managed by clubs, clubs often dont advise they are using them (to avoid the extra charge for a separation lane? or not being allocated a lane) & often club Secretaries & shoot organisers do not know what rifles members are bringing. All too often a shooter brings one out & uses it to the annoyance of many; on mixed use FPs, adjacent lanes but especially those behind & either side & beyond the supposed 1 lane separation. Sound levels to the rear are above safe levels. Why should my kids, scouts or members hearing be damaged sitting in the back of the estate hatch at 600yds because somebody on a FP at Bisley is using one? This area is normally quite safe to chat & banter without ear defenders on, but not if somebody on a nearby FP is using a MB & no not all shooters use or can afford expensive electronic ones.

Range managers carry a duty of care to protect the health & safety of all users. If Mr S.Stimson is blatting away with a MB inflicting damage on other range users hearing he is creating a liability for the range owners & he should be removed to consider managing his own recoil or moved off & well out of the way too.

TattooedGun wrote: Not only are you Naive, you also come across as pretty selfish. "I'm alright, Jack".

No not at all, I unlike others are fair and reasonable and accept that whilst I might not like something that someone is doing on the range as long as no one is going to get killed or its is going to bring the sport into disrepute we should let others get on without whining.

How inconsiderate those people who shoot smoke burners are, their smoke prevents others seeing the targets, the smoke get in your eyes, god knows what carcinogens are in that smoke. but you know what; good luck to them they are keeping the sport going.

People shooting semi autos; with their brass flying everywhere, the odd case ending up down the back of someones shirt; all power to them.

I can think up a load more gripes about other shooters and how their choice is affecting me; but you know what, i just get on with my life and enjoy myself and let them get on with their lives and enjoying their selves, without the need to backbite or in fight within the sport.

If you don't like a muzzle brake shooting near you get a mosin nagant M44, some milsurp and blow them away with your fireball!

s.stimson wrote:

TattooedGun wrote: Not only are you Naive, you also come across as pretty selfish. "I'm alright, Jack".

No not at all, I unlike others are fair and reasonable and accept that whilst I might not like something that someone is doing on the range as long as no one is going to get killed or its is going to bring the sport into disrepute we should let others get on without whining.

How inconsiderate those people who shoot smoke burners are, their smoke prevents others seeing the targets, the smoke get in your eyes, god knows what carcinogens are in that smoke. but you know what; good luck to them they are keeping the sport going.

Funny, the only time I've ever seen smoke burners on the range, they've been lanes and lanes away from other shooters keeping to the crowd that know what they're in for. The few times I've seen muzzle loaders (at Bisley) they're actually quite considerate to other range users.

s.stimson wrote: People shooting semi autos; with their brass flying everywhere, the odd case ending up down the back of someones shirt; all power to them.

Again, it's fine, provided it's at an appropriate time, as an example, if you've got 3 people on a 4 lane range shooting a competition, it would be bad etiquette should someone come along and insist on shooting the same detail next to these three people shooting competition throwing brass all over the other people on the lanes causing a big disruption. It may not be against the rules, but it would be rude and inconsiderate.

Personally, that's what this comes down to, etiquette.

They may not be rules, and therefore unenforceable, however for the benefit of everybody a certain amount of good manners and consideration should be a part of shooting. If you're the only person on a range shooting with a Muzzle Break aside people who are pulling faces and visibly uncomfortable with the concussive blast, perhaps you should think about being considerate to other shooters and removing the break, rather than telling them to shoot elsewhere, after-all if you're so set on pushing the sport to a wider audience, surely you want those prospective new shooters to have a comfortable and enjoyable time, rather than going home with their head ringing from your muzzle break.

If you're on a range where everyone is using them, and only one person not using them is complaining, then I'm with you, that person is in the wrong place.

But a blanket "shoot somewhere else" as you've suggested is naive and selfish.

This doesn't just come into play with muzzle breaks, it comes with anything that you're doing on any range that is making those around you uncomfortable or somehow diminishing everyone else's pleasure of the sport. A certain amount of decency should be upheld. Just because you're abiding by the law, doesn't mean you're automatically in the right.

I don't disagree with your comment about making those around you uncomfortable or somehow diminishing everyone else's pleasure of the sport, and the knife does truly cut both ways; neither side has an automatic right to believe that their view is the right one and that others should bow out to them for the sake of decency.

Personally I work on the basis that if i am set up on a point and someone joins me on that point I have the general "right of way", but equally if i am moving onto the point and someone is there then i will let them know and we can work it out.

hitchphil wrote: Sound levels to the rear are above safe levels. Why should my kids, scouts or members hearing be damaged sitting in the back of the estate hatch at 600yds because somebody on a FP at Bisley is using one? This area is normally quite safe to chat & banter without ear defenders on, but not if somebody on a nearby FP is using a MB & no not all shooters use or can afford expensive electronic ones.
Range managers carry a duty of care to protect the health & safety of all users. If Mr S.Stimson is blatting away with a MB inflicting damage on other range users hearing he is creating a liability for the range owners & he should be removed to consider managing his own recoil or moved off & well out of the way too.

I'm sorry but this kind of talk is utter bolloxs and does nothing but create bad feeling between the various disciplines of our sport. That said I do agree on one point, RCO's do have a responsibility wards the health and safety of others whilst on the range and wearing adequate hearing protection is one of them. However, when I undertook my NRA RCO course I don't recall the part where it mentioned that we should give due consideration for those behind the firing point that wish to hear themselves speak without adequate hearing protection. If you on the range then wearing hearing protection is mandatory , end of.

It really surprises me that people dont get the possible advantages of a well designed brake or moddy (even on a less pokey rifle) and how it might relate to the marksmanship priciples.

(Incidentally, there is reputed to be a fith now "Firer must have a positive mental attitude". Reputed to be being taught at Warminster but given they quote Lanny Basham in the coaching manual it makes sense).

MP4 "The shot being released and followed through without disturbing the position" is manifold. Not only does it refer to a good shot release (whereby the release is subconscious and almost surprises the firer who is concentrating on the conscious like COF, Wind and correct sight picture/POA), but also the need to spot your splash.

I am going to offend some now by mentioning CSR, sorry, it happens, but we only get 2 marked sighers per match. This means that you use aiming off and miss drills in order to make sure you are still on and also explains why few, if any, ace it. Even then the p**f of dust can be misleading.

The characteristics of a "pretendy" AR with a brake is more appreciated when you shoot this type of comp as it is possible to stay on aim. Personally I shoot with my nose welded to the T handle without any undue effects, but it means to an extent I can stay on aim.

As regards the "not needing to take a quick follow up shot in this country", again, do your homework. I forget the figures but I know a stoppage in the Roberts cost me 30 points when I had a jam and dropped 6 shots, it was over in a blink, and there are phases in the Urban contact and a few others where you have a few seconds to get all 10 off in multiples of 4/3/3 so yes, rapid follow ups are a reality.

Shoulder to shoulder...yes, it does get loud and this time of the year I would consider eye protection as small pieces of grass in the eye can bugger the day up. Another reason you would want to stay on target is that when the old red mist comes down, if you have ignored MP 2 (Weapon must point naturally at the target without an undue physical effort) it is not impossible for a rifle to settle pointed at another target. What happens next is up to you but many will concentrate on the shot and not check the number. Ask me how I know.

Do we have brakes fitted because they look cool? A well known gun plumber recently suggested I had taken my new rifle home and stood in front of a mirror with it....Please He was actually there while we removed all the surplus tacticrap so that it was less cluttered and better for its required task. If I did not think a brake was an advantage it would be gone, and I guess the majority of the other CSR (Sorry) bods feel the same.

Again, as Vince said, we are all shooters so come and try....Bet you take it up

So there you go. If you have a problem with a brake using shooter, why not speak to them and agree some seperation? I normally move as far away as I can on a point and have only been moaned at once (It did ask for it, I was covering short siberia with dust). Most of us (certainly that shoot comps anyhow) dont add stuff for looks and will gladly remove things that get in the way.

Cad Monkey wrote:

hitchphil wrote: Sound levels to the rear are above safe levels. Why should my kids, scouts or members hearing be damaged sitting in the back of the estate hatch at 600yds because somebody on a FP at Bisley is using one? This area is normally quite safe to chat & banter without ear defenders on, but not if somebody on a nearby FP is using a MB & no not all shooters use or can afford expensive electronic ones.
Range managers carry a duty of care to protect the health & safety of all users. If Mr S.Stimson is blatting away with a MB inflicting damage on other range users hearing he is creating a liability for the range owners & he should be removed to consider managing his own recoil or moved off & well out of the way too.

I'm sorry but this kind of talk is utter bolloxs and does nothing but create bad feeling between the various disciplines of our sport. That said I do agree on one point, RCO's do have a responsibility wards the health and safety of others whilst on the range and wearing adequate hearing protection is one of them. However, when I undertook my NRA RCO course I don't recall the part where it mentioned that we should give due consideration for those behind the firing point that wish to hear themselves speak without adequate hearing protection. If you on the range then wearing hearing protection is mandatory , end of.

Smack on Dave, and can I suggest that expensive electronic ear deffenders do not enhance the protection to the wearer, but they do allow filtered/buffered hearing in a noisy environment. I have stopped using mine in comps so that I cannot hear those behind the firing point who wont shut up. I use them so I can chat rather than bellw or run a FP more safely but sadly they are not fitted with automatic prat filters There are all manner of things that change the perceived sound levels at the ear, air temp, surrounding topography, even the relative position of cars parked behind the firing point. The fact is that while we all have "Rights" regarding our health and safety at the NSC, we also have "responsibilities" that we need to observe, one of which is wearing suitable sound protection. Moaning about brakes which are permitted, do not offset the requirement to make sure you are protected. Bit like walking into the road whilst messing with your phone.....due care and attention

Maggot wrote:
As regards the "not needing to take a quick follow up shot in this country", again, do your homework. I forget the figures but I know a stoppage in the Roberts cost me 30 points when I had a jam and dropped 6 shots, it was over in a blink, and there are phases in the Urban contact and a few others where you have a few seconds to get all 10 off in multiples of 4/3/3 so yes, rapid follow ups are a reality.

As it was me that this relates to, it seems to miss the point I was making and went on to further explain:

TattooedGun wrote:Or rather, we cannot make rapid follow up shots given that we need to manipulate the bolt or press a lever or some other such manipulation that has more effect to our firing position than the recoil.

Whilst I more than agree the use of MB's, and have stated as much in this thread, to be able to view the splash, or impact of the shot; follow-up shots whilst shouldering a rifle require much more input or change of position to manipulate the weapon to make ready for a follow up shot than the muzzle-brake can possibly justify, to my mind.

Maggot wrote:
If I did not think a brake was an advantage it would be gone, and I guess the majority of the other CSR (Sorry) bods feel the same.

Again, as Vince said, we are all shooters so come and try....Bet you take it up

Again though this comes down to expectation and etiquette. If you're shooting CSR, you can pretty much expect MB's - The types of rifles most common in use (AR Varients) have bird cages as standard and people like to adapt to try and get an edge. Suppressors in this situation would be at a detriment due to the extra weight on the rifle.
Then there's also the common round used in CSR - 5.56/.223 - it's not as rambunctious as say a .308, with or without a muzzle break, so it's not as "in your face", I'd tend to steer clear of those shooting short .308's with muzzle breaks, if possible, even in CSR but maybe that's just me.

Maggot wrote: So there you go. If you have a problem with a brake using shooter, why not speak to them and agree some seperation? I normally move as far away as I can on a point and have only been moaned at once (It did ask for it, I was covering short siberia with dust). Most of us (certainly that shoot comps anyhow) dont add stuff for looks and will gladly remove things that get in the way.

Again, you seem to take into account etiquette and your surroundings. Can't disagree really.