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Re: Straight pull accuracy...

Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 2:05 pm
by HALODIN
Interesting thanks Paul. With all that in mind and going back to the OP's premise, are you of the opinion straight pulls are more accurate than their gas operating cousins?
AR15 wrote:All the high speed video we have shows the bullet exiting the barrel before any rearward bolt carrier movement. High speed video is misleading though and movement is relative, as the carrier is still getting loaded with energy to get its mass going and slow movement is very very very slow in high speed video. The bolt carrier HAS to move in order for the bolt itself to rotate as its movement is driven by the cam pin track in the carrier, although there is play in the linkage before the bolt starts to rotate. Dwell time (the distance between the gas port and the end of the muzzle) is key to function as the bolt has to have pressure in order to work, as soon as the bullet exits, the barrel will return to normal pressure. If you capture gas closer to the chamber, say with a pistol length gas system then you are going to get a larger pressure spike and longer dwell time through the gas parts to the carrier, this will effect the bolts behavior, lock time and carrier velocity amongst other things. If you capture the gas from further down the barrel then the gas pressure is much flatter and dwell time is shorter.
Over gas a gun and it will tear case rims and beat itself apart trying to function. Increasing lock time is a most desirable thing on a semi as it gives the case time to contract a bit more, that why folk run Full Auto carriers (they weigh a bit more) and heavy buffers.

In some very closeup video we could actually see micro rearward movement of the rifle due to the bolt lugs loading into the extension as the gun was fired.

Straight pull accuracy...

Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 2:57 pm
by safetyfirst
I have one of Paul's TCR rifles in .233 and even though the barrel is one of the more budget options (German 16" govt profile) I found it reliably delivers .5moa with Sierra 69gn matchking with a 10 shot group at .3 moa being its best effort (it's got a hiperfire 24c trigger) so in terms of accuracy I can't see many bolt guns improving significantly on that! A straight pull IS a bolt gun in many ways, though an AR15 or any unmodified straight pull has nowhere near the same levels of precision in terms of blueprinting, head spacing etc as a hand made F class nail driver.

Re: Straight pull accuracy...

Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 4:42 pm
by Laurie
[quote="HALODIN"]Interesting thanks Paul. With all that in mind and going back to the OP's premise, are you of the opinion straight pulls are more accurate than their gas operating cousins?[quote]

Let's put it this way. US NRA High-Power Service Rifle rules specifically forbid the isolation of the rifle gas operating system in any part of the XTC course of fire, including the slowfire marked-shots 600 yard stage where the norm is to use over-length 80gn rounds which are single loaded into the chamber.

Re: Straight pull accuracy...

Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 8:48 pm
by HALODIN
Reading between the lines, I guess it does mean they're more accurate.

Re: Straight pull accuracy...

Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 9:34 pm
by Blu
I disagree, all my semi auto AR rifles are just as accurate as their bolt action counterparts of the same calibre therefore I don't see how a straight pull is going to be any more accurate.

Re: Straight pull accuracy...

Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 10:05 pm
by Blu
My Missus doesn't come out and shoot that often as she's not really all that interested in it. However below is her target from the very first time she came out and shot my semi auto Grendel at 200 yards. Not bad for someone who doesn't shoot that often but it also says just how accurate the rifle is even in the hands of a part time shooter.
Grendel target.JPG

Re: Straight pull accuracy...

Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 9:35 am
by AR15
We just did some accuracy testing this weekend with our new 4150CMV barrels, this was a 14.5'' Intermediate gassed .223. 1:7 Twist, 223Wylde chamber. We got .332MOA with Federal Gold. I hope for better with handloads.

Re: Straight pull accuracy...

Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 9:44 am
by channel12
I am assuming you have read up on the .50 beowulf cartridge? It's essentially a large pistol round and was developed as short range round with maxium stopping power. The US Navy were interested for use by ship boarding parties as any combat would be at short range. It was also promoted as a hunting round as it wouldn't be easily deflected by brushwood.

So if you are looking for long accuracy I would suggest .50 beowulf isn't the answer. However if you need to shoot up a car at a military check point it's ideal !

Re: Straight pull accuracy...

Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 10:21 am
by dromia
With a good bullet and a good barrel then the Beowulf can be as accurate as any other cartridge, what it isn't is flat shooting but at known ranges or close in that isn't an issue. If you think BP 45-70 then you will have a handle on the Beowulf and that round was accurate enough to almost bring the North American Bison to extinction.

I've never owned a Beowulf but I have had the opportunity to play with one developing some cast loads, unfortunately it was on an AR platform so not the best for shooting, but it still delivered predictably and seemed to have no vices as a round, Why should it being a nice straight walled case. The only thing you need to watch is OAL length as it chambers on the case mouth.

A reliable supply of brass could also be an issue with all the restrictions in the US. If I came across a proper bolt gun in this calibre then I would seriously think about giving room in the armoury. I'd like to see how it performed with black powder, a rolling block, martini, break barrel or any sound single shot action would form the basis of an excellent gun for this round if the case extraction could be made to work on the recessed rim, failing that I wouldn't find the use of a clearing rod too much of a handicap.

Re: Straight pull accuracy...

Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 12:21 pm
by meles meles
Hmmm, a martini action in .50 Beowulf does have a certain attraction...