The UK's Finest Independent Forum for Shooters and Gun Owners. Est 2010.

Morning all,

Earlier this year I was at the British Shooting show and noticed they had a natty mobile shooting range in one corner - they were charging joe public to shoot various .22s - one of which was a 1911 style long barreled pistol - now I've always been told you cannot "borrow" these, so how does that work?

Something in the back of my mind is nagging me about "Miniature Rifle Range" rules being different? any ideas?

We actually cover this in the latest Target Shooting program which came out yesterday.

https://youtu.be/gVxh4URGa-s

But in short, whilst the LBP falls into the size category for a .22 semi auto rifle its not been classified as 'suitable for target shooting' by the Home Office so has a separate classification similar to a Sect 1 shotgun. So you cant use one unless you have one on your ticket.

All of this is moot of course as the HO guidelines are not law and nor do the police have the right to determine law, merely enforce it but if you use one there is the risk that you will be used as a test case to determine the point, not really worth that?

From the FA 1968, S11;

"A person conducting or carrying on a miniature rifle range (whether for a rifle club or otherwise) or shooting gallery at which no firearms are used other than air weapons or miniature rifles not exceeding ·23 inch calibre may, without holding a certificate, have in his possession, or purchase or acquire, such miniature rifles and ammunition suitable therefor; and any person may, without holding a certificate, use any such rifle and ammunition at such a range or gallery."

As the word 'rifle' is used (as opposed to 'firearm') IMHO they cannot operate under the 'miniature rifle range' exemption, as LBP's/LBR's are not rifles. There is a misnomer that because LBP's/LBR's aren't 'handguns'/'short firearms', that makes them a rifle, which has never been established as the case by any court AFAIK.

Its a ridiculous situation that could be easily resolved by replacing all of the 'rifle' references in the exemption parts of the various acts with 'firearm', this would sort the S1 shotgun anomaly out too.

Blackstuff wrote:From the FA 1968, S11;

"A person conducting or carrying on a miniature rifle range (whether for a rifle club or otherwise) or shooting gallery at which no firearms are used other than air weapons or miniature rifles not exceeding ·23 inch calibre may, without holding a certificate, have in his possession, or purchase or acquire, such miniature rifles and ammunition suitable therefor; and any person may, without holding a certificate, use any such rifle and ammunition at such a range or gallery."

As the word 'rifle' is used (as opposed to 'firearm') IMHO they cannot operate under the 'miniature rifle range' exemption, as LBP's/LBR's are not rifles. There is a misnomer that because LBP's/LBR's aren't 'handguns'/'short firearms', that makes them a rifle, which has never been established as the case by any court AFAIK.

Its a ridiculous situation that could be easily resolved by replacing all of the 'rifle' references in the exemption parts of the various acts with 'firearm', this would sort the S1 shotgun anomaly out too.

I recall their was an attempt to to introduce an amendment to do what you suggested during the policing and crime bill, it didn't happen and instead we only got the expanding ammo bit plus the temporary extensions for FAC's in emergencies.

Yes i think it was quashed at the last minute by the MP who was in charge of the committee and IIRC he was/is a shooter himself

There is no such thing as a pistol or rifle in law, there is only the 12"/24" measurement and those firearms that fall above the lengths (legal) and those that don't (illegal or restricted). Muzzle loading pistols are defined.

The reason you cannot borrow one at a club is because clubs are certified as 'rifle clubs' (and/or muzzleloading pistol clubs) and one of the exemptions for using a firearm for which you do not hold a license is at an approved club, and LBPs are not 'rifles'. Clubs aren't now approved as pistol or shotgun clubs so you cannot borrow a pistol or shotgun.



ETA, you beat me to it.
But the S11(4), although it mentions miniature rifle clubs it goes on to say that 'firearms' of less than .23 calibre are used, which could allow the use of suitable LPBs.

Well, there is one Crown Court case where the jury actually decided that an LBP was a 'rifle' but its Crown Court so has no meaningful precedence so you're taking your chances of being a test case should the CPS think it a good idea.

Mattnall wrote:<snip>
ETA, you beat me to it.
But the S11(4), although it mentions miniature rifle clubs it goes on to say that 'firearms' of less than .23 calibre are used, which could allow the use of suitable LPBs.

This.

The same Home office exemption which allows users to borrow rifles at a club specifically disallows LBP/S1 Shotguns and rifles exceeding 10,000ft/lbs - however it is completely separate to the miniature rifle range stipulation which is vague and only mentions firearms of less than .23 calibre - of which LBPs fit the bill.

The use of firearms for target shooting, whilst not having a firearm certificate, relies upon the exemption stipulated in the Amendment Act 1988. In order to take advantage of this exemption you need to be a member of a Home Office approved club. The criteria for such a club is laid down in the Home Office pamphlet relating to that. Rifles and muzzle loading pistols are the only approved target shooting firearms. Hence no other exemption under s15 for anything else.

It’s not Guidance, nor is it the decision of the police.

TattooedGun wrote:the same Home office exemption which allows users to borrow rifles at a club specifically disallows LBP/S1 Shotguns and rifles exceeding 10,000ft/lbs - however it is completely separate to the miniature rifle range stipulation which is vague and only mentions firearms of less than .23 calibre - of which LBPs fit the bill.

Unfortunately, s11(4) states;

“no firearms are used other than air weapons or miniature rifles not exceeding ·23 inch calibre”