RCO course: Honesty or safety - which matters most?

[meles meles]

oomans: last weekend we were down at Bisley for an RCO course - which we're delighted to say we passed. A subject that came up for conversation during the weekend was the relative severity of penalties handed down by the High and Mightyships of the NRA for a couple of infringements of the rules. These were something like (we can't remember the exact figures but the relative size is what matters):

a. Accidental discharge of a firearm in the car park - 2 year ban from Bisley
b. Cheating in a postal competition - lifetime ban.

Now, seeing as this was an RCO course, there was much indignance and a view that the safety infringement ought to have carried a greater penalty. We were in a minority of just 2 or 3 in thinking that the penalty was correct, our argument being best articulated by one of the two youngest oomans on the course ( both of whom agreed with us, restoring our jaded faith in primates in general and konstabubbles in particular), that, "a safety infringement can usually be sorted by improved training whereas dishonesty is unlikely to be so easily remedied."

What thinkest thou? Were the penalties fair? We believe so...

[karen]

NRA don't do postal competitions smile2

However having had a best friend who cheated I can tell you now a lifetime ban is the only way - if not you spend the rest of your shooting life wondering if he/she is cheating. It took over two years to prove but eventually he was caught. I was the one who initially reported him and was also involved in the final proof of his cheating. Never regretted it!

Everyone makes mistakes and the next negligent discharge could happen to you - a short ban and better education will mean you'll never do it again.

A cheat is unlikely to change - just maybe cheat in a different way.

Love

Karen

[M99]

Whilst I agree that once a cheat, always a cheat, I do not and cannot agree that an ND is just one of these things that happens. Especially not in a carpark. On the firing point, maybe a 2 year ban. In a carpark or back of the range. Life ban. As it could so easily result in a fatality. Complacency.

Mike

[karen]

Hmmm I've known of several which would not have endangered life and would never be repeated again.

The most likely to endanger life was a young lad who had been taught badly by his shooting master and a series of separate events (which were unlikely to be repeated) led to an ND - should he be banned for life?

If someone leaves a round in the chamber when leaving the firing point (which could lead to an ND) should they be banned for life?

If someone is getting senile and puts a round in the ground a few yards in front of the firing point should they be banned for life? (In this case the person concerned was banned for life).

Its a difficult area and all these cases are judged on the facts

Love

Karen

[TattooedGun]

To be honest a 2 year ban is plenty, You'll find most who ND are not likely going to want to come back through embarrassment or fear they might do it again and it might be more serious... if someone does come back, they WILL have learnt their lesson.

[Scotsgun]

I don't think its so 'black and white,' e.g. I've witnessed NDs in which the culprit lacked proper training, but did realise he was at fault and was more than thankful for the corrective training. I've also witnessed a ND in which the culprit was aware of his fault but just didn't care.

Whilst I agree that cheating at postal competitions is pathetic and deserves your contempt, it is completely unrelated to unsafe shooting and cannot be compared when considering punishment.

[tikkathreebarrels]

Whilst I agree that once a cheat, always a cheat, I do not and cannot agree that an ND is just one of these things that happens. Especially not in a carpark. On the firing point, maybe a 2 year ban. In a carpark or back of the range. Life ban. As it could so easily result in a fatality. Complacency.

Mike

In principle I'm right with you here. On the term of the punishment I'm undecided.

The primary responsibility for safety rests with the shooter but who "cleared" that weapon to be cased and taken off the FP: what about some responsibility there?

And, depending on circumstances, wouldn't a club be obliged to report such a ban to the firearms licensing and might that not lead to a FAC being revoked?

[M99]

Whilst I agree that once a cheat, always a cheat, I do not and cannot agree that an ND is just one of these things that happens. Especially not in a carpark. On the firing point, maybe a 2 year ban. In a carpark or back of the range. Life ban. As it could so easily result in a fatality. Complacency.

Mike

In principle I'm right with you here. On the term of the punishment I'm undecided.

The primary responsibility for safety rests with the shooter but who "cleared" that weapon to be cased and taken off the FP: what about some responsibility there?

And, depending on circumstances, wouldn't a club be obliged to report such a ban to the firearms licensing and might that not lead to a FAC being revoked?

If it was for example at Bisley - then quiet probably nobody cleared that firearm!

Apart from competitions and club days, you get people turn up on the firing point, shoot then just leave, part from themselves nobody clears those firearms.

I always have a wry smile at the fact you need a qualified RCO to shoot on MOD ranges, yet you can turn up at Bisley, shoot and leave if you wish without speaking to anyone else apart from the folk in the range office.

Mike

[karen]

a. Accidental discharge of a firearm in the car park - 2 year ban from Bisley
b. Cheating in a postal competition - lifetime ban.

Um had a think and cannot remember there ever being a case of (a) and as I have already said (b) doesn't happen.

Can you let me know who told you about these cases? Best if you PM me I think

Love

Karen

[Chuck]

"If someone leaves the firing point with a round chambered " Err what about the RO or whoever that supposedly cleared the firearm in the first place, what happens to them??.

What if Bisley is there regular place to shoot, surely a two year BAN is OTT. Would that not have a knock on effect on the persons FAC and club memberships elsewhere. what about at renewal time if it came to light? Being canned for one mistake (and yes I know it's dangrous) is a tad severe. As someone said, remedial training is much better.

We are assuming of course they they did not ARRIVE at the car park with the firearm loaded - aren't we! tesnews