Scottish Airgun Licensing

[FencepostError]

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Unfortunately, public debate nowadays seems to consist mainly of emotive soundbites

Well as a long time firearms owner I assure you that is not the case here.

Apologies if it seemed I was implying that. I was referring to the usual level of debate in the mass media. There is plenty of more detailed debate (on all sorts of subject areas) on forums that cater to people with a particular interest in a subject (such as this one), but the greater number of voters see only the rather shallow arguments presented to them.

People and animals are being injured by people who shouldn't have a potato gun let alone an airgun and as a result, they are going to be at the very worst banned and once again it's the law abiding that will suffer. So you tell me friend, what's the answer?

I certainly don't claim to have any complete or perfect answer, but I think you run into serious diminishing returns when you look to license 12ftlb air rifles (and there's a significant cost in doing so). In the case of many currently licensed firearms you can see that it would be non-trivial for someone to find some other way of replicating their potentially harmful effects with unlicensed materials. However, in the case of 12ftlb air guns I think it's safe to say that there are easily obtained equivalent or more harmful alternatives which are infeasible to practically restrict.

My point was not that you could not make an argument for licensing, but that given the cost and the ease with which people will ill intent could find alternatives, such an argument would (or should) have to show that it would actually reduce harm and not just displace it into offences with other articles.

If it's the case that there's currently a "fashion" of committing offences with air guns, then you might be able to support that. If it's simply people looking to commit offences (casually or with forethought) and happening to use air guns, I think that's a lot weaker.

I don't know the statistics on what sort of people are committing offences with air guns and at what rate (and whether that's actually statistically significant - "spates" and "runs" happen in sequences of random events much more frequently than most people intuitively expect), but I'd agree that measures short of registration or perhaps actual licences may make sense. (Eg, greater age restrictions, a background check to check the status of a buyer against the existing legal criteria, harsher punishment for initial offences, etc.)

[Blu]

Demonic69,

I gave no reasons, no arguments, I don't get the point you're trying to make. So trolling for a fight ain't gonna work :P

You used the old arguments of knives, cars and alcohol kill far more people than guns, now while that is true it just doesn't cut it any more when it comes to guns of any type. So no I'm not trolling for an argument and I resent the implication that I'm a troll.

You say you don't get the point I'm trying to make yet you say later something needs to be done, that is the point I am trying to make and given the knee jerk reactions you state I'm asking what folks think should be done. As an aside did you know that when the Scottish government put it out for consultation, just over a 1'000 individuals replied. So where was the rest of the shooting community on this? Valid question I think.

Blu

[Blu]

FencepostError. No need for any apologies on your part friend as I didn't think you were implying anything. I just meant that as a fellow shooter I wasn't given to kneejerk reactions or emotive responses on matters such as this.

I agree with what you have written and if I'm honest I don't think any type of licensing will work either, saying that though I do think that a minimum age say of 21 and a background check could be implemented when buying, along with some type of proof that a background check has been implemented. Unfortunately that still leaves the problem of all the air guns that are already out there. That I believe could be a difficult one.

Blu

[Demonic69]

You used the old arguments of knives, cars and alcohol kill far more people than guns, now while that is true it just doesn't cut it any more when it comes to guns of any type. So no I'm not trolling for an argument and I resent the implication that I'm a troll.

They weren't arguments against licensing mate, apart from cost and practicality, and the fact that it shouldn't have come this, I can't think of any.
It was just frustration at a system that picks it's battles for the wrong reasons. And I didn't say you were a troll, I said you were trolling, and I actually meant trawling (I blame the hipsters), and I used an emoticon! Was just in jest mucker.

You say you don't get the point I'm trying to make yet you say later something needs to be done, that is the point I am trying to make and given the knee jerk reactions you state I'm asking what folks think should be done.

It was more your specific point about my points...
What can be done? We're not a democratic society, either by rule or by apathy. This one is difficult, if legit shooters band together the government will then see only a small group that needs policing, as they only focus the law abiding.
If they don't they risk having their sport impacted a major way that could possibly, have been limited.

As an aside did you know that when the Scottish government put it out for consultation, just over a 1'000 individuals replied. So where was the rest of the shooting community on this? Valid question I think.

Blu

I didn't know at the time, I'm not sure how these things are delivered to the masses either.
Shooters are where they always are, hiding in their little niche hoping the winds of change blow right by them, whispering to themselves over and over "I'm alright Jack".

I don't read my own signature!

[Demonic69]

Damn, double tap

[Polchraine]

Just think of the bumper days that retailers in Carlisle, Berwick and other villages will see. A quick drive across to buy ten and then sell on to those North of the border who do not want to have a licence.

[Blu]

You used the old arguments of knives, cars and alcohol kill far more people than guns, now while that is true it just doesn't cut it any more when it comes to guns of any type. So no I'm not trolling for an argument and I resent the implication that I'm a troll.

They weren't arguments against licensing mate, apart from cost and practicality, and the fact that it shouldn't have come this, I can't think of any.
It was just frustration at a system that picks it's battles for the wrong reasons. And I didn't say you were a troll, I said you were trolling, and I actually meant trawling (I blame the hipsters), and I used an emoticon! Was just in jest mucker.

You say you don't get the point I'm trying to make yet you say later something needs to be done, that is the point I am trying to make and given the knee jerk reactions you state I'm asking what folks think should be done.

It was more your specific point about my points...
What can be done? We're not a democratic society, either by rule or by apathy. This one is difficult, if legit shooters band together the government will then see only a small group that needs policing, as they only focus the law abiding.
If they don't they risk having their sport impacted a major way that could possibly, have been limited.

As an aside did you know that when the Scottish government put it out for consultation, just over a 1'000 individuals replied. So where was the rest of the shooting community on this? Valid question I think.

Blu

I didn't know at the time, I'm not sure how these things are delivered to the masses either.
Shooters are where they always are, hiding in their little niche hoping the winds of change blow right by them, whispering to themselves over and over "I'm alright Jack".

I don't read my own signature!

Okay look lets start again, first off I wasn't trawling for an argument, I was putting what I think out there, that's all nothing more, so on that score no worries, we'll put it down to me reading it wrong.

I accept that what you wrote weren't arguments against licensing, but the thing is every time something like this comes up or something to do with people (or animals) being injured with guns, out comes the stuff like that. The way I see it, that just doesn't wash any more if indeed it ever did. We know for a fact people kill or injure with cars, knives, bottles or whatever, but we can't use that as reasoning to fight our corner.

The majority of people to a degree understand cars, see them everyday, same with knives, they see them as tools of everyday life, not so with guns. The majority of folks in the UK have a very limited understanding of guns and along with what they read or see in the media that makes them frightening things that shouldn't be allowed.

It was more your specific point about my points...
What can be done? We're not a democratic society, either by rule or by apathy. This one is difficult, if legit shooters band together the government will then see only a small group that needs policing, as they only focus the law abiding.
If they don't they risk having their sport impacted a major way that could possibly, have been limited.

Okay I take on board the thing about specific points. You ask what can be done, well the way I see it, small group or not you have to make your voices heard, you have no choice because as you point out the shooting fraternity run the risk of having their sport impacted in a major way that could possibly, have been limited. To me the choice is very clear.

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I didn't know at the time, I'm not sure how these things are delivered to the masses either.

Okay again I accept that but let me ask you a question friend, and I'm not trying to be a smart ass or be stroppy here, did you actually go looking for any information on it. Dude I'm four thousand miles away, this doesn't affect me in the slightest, but I took the time to see what I could do about it and I actually tried to take part and make my views known to the Scottish Government via the public consultation website that was open to the public from November 14th 2013 to March 15th 2014 for the public to give their input. Unfortunately because of my location, the website wasn't set up to let me, me having a non UK address.

I have to say that I was very surprised at what I consider to be the very low number of 1,101 people who did give their views given the number of shooting sportsmen/women there are in the UK. Saying that though, it could be that your last line of your post "Shooters are where they always are, hiding in their little niche hoping the winds of change blow right by them, whispering to themselves over and over "I'm alright Jack"." has more truth to it than we know.

If that's the case you're only screwing yourselves and making the job of the antis so much easier.

Blu

[Blu]

Just think of the bumper days that retailers in Carlisle, Berwick and other villages will see. A quick drive across to buy ten and then sell on to those North of the border who do not want to have a licence.

Oh yeah no doubt mate. Although do you really think the antis in England and the Westminster crowd aren't watching to see how it plays out in Scotland. Bit like the poll tax mate, see how it goes in Scotland first and then introduce it in England and Wales if there isn't to much hue and cry against it.

Blu

[Mr_Logic]

Blu, regarding numbers of responses, the Salmond muppets specifically said they ARE doing it so not to bother replying saying Don't Do It. The whole principle is daft, and that was the only piece of feedback anyone has.

[Blu]

Blu, regarding numbers of responses, the Salmond muppets specifically said they ARE doing it so not to bother replying saying Don't Do It. The whole principle is daft, and that was the only piece of feedback anyone has.

Yeah but the thing is mate, people did reply, and not just sportsmen and or the antis. Companies with a vested interest in Shooting replied, members of the Judiciary replied, BASC, NRA replied. Here tell you what, here's the website, check it out for yourselves. Besides just because the Scottish Government said not to bother replying, well doing just that made their job so much easier. Basically mate they got away with it because very few bothered to challenge them on it.

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Justi ... nlicensing

Blu