Permanently attached suppressors ?

Anything shooting related including law and procedure questions.

Moderator: dromia

Forum rules
Should your post be in Grumpy Old Men? This area is for general shooting related posts only please.
Locked
Message
Author
User avatar
Sim G
Posts: 10753
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2010 9:09 pm
Contact:

Re: Permanently attached suppressors ?

#71 Post by Sim G »

AR15 wrote: SimG you are completely wrong. Why do the home office want the conversion of the barrel done by a sec 5 if it's ok for anyone to chop a barrel down to sub 12''
Why do I have authority to manufacture sec5 aba components if anyone can chop a barrel down to under12''??????

No, I am not. The legal status of a component part is based on the category of firearm from which that part has come. Read the guidance, in conjunction with the primary legislation and stated cases.

The length of a barrel is actually irrelevant, it's the category it pertains to that is the factor. Colt 1911, .455 barrel. 5 inches long from a semi automatic pistol. S5? Or not s7.1? Or even s7.3? It could even be still be s1 on a "humane dispatch".

Likewise, you manufacture an AR15 bolt. Where do you register that? S1 or S5? Could easily be either, it's the category of firearm in which it is fitted dictates the classification. Because you choose to register one way dies not mean that is the necessity.

And if you're stating that the Home Office are insisting that the work must be done by a s5 RFD, as per the advice given Brian, pray tell why they are also insisting that the work to have a barrel shortened and a mod permanently attached have to "register and apply to have the modification on your certificate"? Really, under what? Both pieces of advice there, I would argue are wrong. And that's what it is, advice. The HO have stated that the modification can happen and the rationale behind it. The mechanics are wafty.
In 1978 I was told by my grand dad that the secret to rifle accuracy is, a quality bullet, fired down a quality barrel..... How has that changed?

Guns dont kill people. Dads with pretty Daughters do...!
breacher

Re: Permanently attached suppressors ?

#72 Post by breacher »

Ok - well I have taken reasonable steps by contacting the Home Office and the reply was clear. I see no need to go back and ask them if they are sure !

Their reply seems to tally with Sims view on componant parts. And it tallies with similar advice on sec 5 componants and sec 1 versions of SLRs etc

As to why they specified sec 5 to do the work ? Not sure - maybe a security issue.

Anyway - there is precedent - lots of shotguns sub 24" barrel with welded on brakes etc and no prosecutions.
AR15

Re: Permanently attached suppressors ?

#73 Post by AR15 »

To answer your bolt question, they item is dual use and therefore reverts to the lowest classification, ie Sec1.
Its completely correct that a component part takes its classification from the donor firearm. However if the part is manufactured from scratch, there is no donor firearm, or it is converted from a sec1 firearm, it becomes a component part of whatever classification it fits within.
You cannot have Sec1 barrels under 12'', they dont exist.
Using your logic it would be OK to machine out and add some auto sear holes to a lower, because you are never going to fit a select fire trigger group, it will be OK right? Wrong, its a Sec5a component converted from a Sec1 component.
Just the same way that a sec1 barrel chopped down to under 12'' is a Sec5 aba component.

Can you realistically imagine a scenario where an RFD has chopped a load of barrels to 8''(that according to you is OK because he modified a Sec1 component) and then starts selling them to other RFD's, who can hold onto these items because they may weld a can on the end at the time of assembly???
Its hilarious.
Dont you think its weird how NOBODY sells those items outside of the Sec5 community?
How would we even police that situation?
Sec1 RFD's around the country with Sec5 components (that you call Sec1!!!!), like chambered short barrels and converted full auto lowers, that may or may not get assembled into Sec5 firearms, makes a mockery of any Sec5 authority and the Home Office.
Section 5 parts are controlled items, regardless of whether they were stripped from guns, manufactured or converted.

I have Sec5 authority for the MANUFACTURE of Section 5 A and ABA components, why did they grant me that if I dont need it?
Notice how I dont have authority for the manufacture of Sec5 ab components, thats because I dont need it, as any component of a Semi Auto rifle (Sec5 ab) is deemed to be Sec1.

I have both a Sec5 firearms and components register with the instructions that anything I manufacture or convert must be added to that register.
The register is full of items marked 'Manufactured', to suggest that I dont require this authority to produce these items is farcical.
You quote R v Clarke and R v Ashton. The first states that the component part of a prohibited weapon is itself a prohibited weapon. Although there is no statutory definition. It also states, The term "component part" may be held to include (i) the barrel, chamber, cylinder, (ii) frame, body or receiver.
Ashton states that any part that stops a firearm functioning from the way it was deigned is a component part. So therefore a Barrel IS a component part and one under 12'' long is a component part of a Sec5 aba firearm, as it would only be legally allowed to function in such a weapon and in itself is therefore a prohibited weapon. So a barrel manufactured or converted to less than 12'' is most certainly prohibited (hence the Home Office request that Breachers work was carried out by a Sec5 authority).

The fact that this Sec5 component for an ABA firearm was then used in a Sec1 firearm should be entirely illegal as you cannot convert or utilise components from that classification in a Sec1 gun.

On another note if you assemble all your sec1 parts and end up with a firearm that is say under legal length then theoretically it becomes a Section 5 aba firearm the instant it is assembled into a functioning gun. Given that you are not allowed to convert a Section 5aba firearm to a section1 firearm you are theoretically stuck.
Thats the black and white of the law and we all know that in real life there is a lot of grey. The only way the grey gets turned ito black and white is when you get taken to court for a judge to make a ruling and thats someplace no one wants to go.

If you are wise you would never assemble an AR into a condition where it was a functioning firearm that was under legal length at anytime whatsoever, but its your choice. The fact you may do it a lot doesn't make it legal it just means that you haven't been caught yet.

I wouldn't advertise the fact on the internet.
AR15

Re: Permanently attached suppressors ?

#74 Post by AR15 »

[/quote] Anyway - there is precedent - lots of shotguns sub 24" barrel with welded on brakes etc and no prosecutions.[/quote]

I believe component parts of a shotgun as defined by 1(3)(a)) are excepted from the definition of a 'firearm' as are air weapons as defined in 1(3)(b)).


You can pretty much do what you want with them as long as when they are assembled into a firearm it is legal within 1(3)(a)) definition.
Rarms
Posts: 432
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:52 pm
Contact:

Re: Permanently attached suppressors ?

#75 Post by Rarms »

breacher wrote: Several very experienced gunplumbers have said that any suppressor should be removed and crown cleaned after use as leaving the suppressor in place can lead to corrosion of the crown.

I would imagine you could reach the crown if suppressor can be taken apart from the business end but what about the non strippible ones ? The Lantac looks to be a non strippible suppressor.
Read of it being done using a SAK type Mod where you can remove the outer shell, which leaves the inner skeleton of the mod, should then dry out suitably I would imagine.
breacher wrote:So, what do you say to my post re buffer tube removal - does that render a sec1 12" AR suddenly sec5 ?
Not if you are cleaning/maintaining it, but if you were to take it to the range and shoot it then yes!

Sim G wrote:There is no statutory definition of "component part". There is case law, R v Clarke and R v Ashton that have given judgement and Home Office guidance advises in Chapter 3 of the current issue, as to what constitutes a component part.

Likewise, the component part of a prohibited weapon is by the virtue of the Act, itself prohibited. However, that part needs to have been assembled as a constituent of the prohibited weapon to generate that status. Hence, a 20 inch barrel taken off a select fire M16 is a prohibited component part and always will be. However, a 20 inch barrel removed from a straight pull s1 AR, is a s1 component. Chop that s1 barrel to 11 inches, it remains a s1 component and continues to be s1 when a two inch muzzle brake is welded on and then fitted back onto the s1 straight pull.

However, if at the stage when the s1 barrel was cut to 11 inches, it was then fitted back to the s1 straight pull, the firearm is now prohibited as per s5, as the components will then always be, from then on.
Boom. And from memory a member on here has a letter from the HO ro that effect!
User avatar
safetyfirst
Posts: 2651
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2014 8:41 am
Contact:

Re: Permanently attached suppressors ?

#76 Post by safetyfirst »

As someone wanting to have this work done on an AR, this thread makes for fascinating reading.

When I asked my FEO about it he went off to his boss and they read up and came back saying you can't do it if the barrel is ever under 12"

When I called a big name Suffolk RFD a few weeks back they told me they'd done this before and they'd asked the proof house for their determination and their words were "as long as the sun does not set on that 11" barrel, its fine, but the RFD performing the work must hold section 5 authority and it must be re-proofed"

I see AR15's points here, and Breachers, I see AR15's frustration with the lack of consistency in the law and Breachers clear attempts to take every precaution when trying to get a modification made.

Until a judge steps in it sounds like this will remain a gray area but can I ask, if I send my section 1 rifle off for this work and get it back re-proofed, am I ever liable for prosecution under the firearms act if a judge does decide that a section 1 firearm cannot have a barrel that has at any stage been chambered and less than 12"?
AR15

Re: Permanently attached suppressors ?

#77 Post by AR15 »

Read 3.25, page 22 of the guide on firearms licensing law. U.K. Gov website. Published 2016.
Then read 3.26. Last statement.
Also note that they also define a component part as a 'firearm' in the 1968 act within 3.26, therefore mention of the word firearm under the sec 5 guidance also covers components by virtue of that definition or expression.
User avatar
safetyfirst
Posts: 2651
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2014 8:41 am
Contact:

Re: Permanently attached suppressors ?

#78 Post by safetyfirst »

Thanks AR15. I'm on a mobile, if anyone with a proper computer is sufficiently interested, could they copy the relevant sections in here for reference? :)
breacher

Re: Permanently attached suppressors ?

#79 Post by breacher »

Rarms wrote:
breacher wrote: Several very experienced gunplumbers have said that any suppressor should be removed and crown cleaned after use as leaving the suppressor in place can lead to corrosion of the crown.

I would imagine you could reach the crown if suppressor can be taken apart from the business end but what about the non strippible ones ? The Lantac looks to be a non strippible suppressor.
Read of it being done using a SAK type Mod where you can remove the outer shell, which leaves the inner skeleton of the mod, should then dry out suitably I would imagine.
breacher wrote:So, what do you say to my post re buffer tube removal - does that render a sec1 12" AR suddenly sec5 ?
Not if you are cleaning/maintaining it, but if you were to take it to the range and shoot it then yes!

Sim G wrote:There is no statutory definition of "component part". There is case law, R v Clarke and R v Ashton that have given judgement and Home Office guidance advises in Chapter 3 of the current issue, as to what constitutes a component part.

Likewise, the component part of a prohibited weapon is by the virtue of the Act, itself prohibited. However, that part needs to have been assembled as a constituent of the prohibited weapon to generate that status. Hence, a 20 inch barrel taken off a select fire M16 is a prohibited component part and always will be. However, a 20 inch barrel removed from a straight pull s1 AR, is a s1 component. Chop that s1 barrel to 11 inches, it remains a s1 component and continues to be s1 when a two inch muzzle brake is welded on and then fitted back onto the s1 straight pull.

However, if at the stage when the s1 barrel was cut to 11 inches, it was then fitted back to the s1 straight pull, the firearm is now prohibited as per s5, as the components will then always be, from then on.
Boom. And from memory a member on here has a letter from the HO ro that effect![/quote

] It would be great if they are reading this and can show us that letter.
AR15

Re: Permanently attached suppressors ?

#80 Post by AR15 »

Ill outline it here for ease.

2016 Guide on Firearms Licensing Law. Available from http://www.gov.uk

Page 22.

3.25 The manufacture, purchase, sale and possession of 3D printed firearms, ammunition or
their component parts is fully captured by the provisions in section 57(1) of the Firearms
Act 1968. The definition of firearm in the Act includes any component parts. 3D printed
firearms are subject to strict control in the following respects:
a. under section 1 of the 1968 Act, it is an offence for an individual to possess, purchase
or acquire any component part of a firearm without a certificate;
b. under section 3 of the 1968 Act, it is an offence for a person to manufacture or
possess for sale a component part of a firearm acting by way of trade or business; and
c. under section 5 of the 1968 Act, it is an offence for a person to possess, purchase,
acquire, manufacture, sell, transfer, possess for sale or transfer, or purchase or acquire
for sale or transfer, a component part of a prohibited weapon without the authority of
the Secretary of State for the Home Department or by Scottish Ministers in Scotland.

This section very clearly defines the fact that its illegal to possess, purchase,
acquire, manufacture, sell, transfer, possess for sale or transfer, or purchase or acquire
for sale or transfer, a 3D printed component part of a prohibited weapon without the authority of
the Secretary of State.

Then it states:

3.26 The expression “firearm” in the 1968 Act means a lethal barreled weapon of any
description, or component part of such weapon, from which any shot, bullet or other
missile can be discharged (see chapter 13 for more details on component parts). 3D
printed weapons are potentially lethal barreled weapons and must be viewed as such in
law. The method of manufacture is not material to this consideration.

This section clearly defines component parts as well as a lethal barreled weapon (complete gun) with the expression 'firearm'.
Its clearly states that the term 'firearm' in the 1968 act will mean both complete guns AND components.
It also clearly states that the method of manufacture is not material to this consideration. At no point does it state that the component part MUST come from a complete gun assembly.

3.3 Also states:

3.3 Note that the component parts of weapons falling under 5(1)(a), 5(1A)(a) or 5(1)(aba) are
also subject to section 5 controls (see also Chapter 13).

Now lets look at the Section5 guidance:

Weapons subject to general prohibition.
(1)A person commits an offence if he has in his possession, or purchases or acquires, or manufactures, sells or transfers—

2
(a)any firearm which is so designed or adapted that two or more missiles can be successively discharged without repeated pressure on the trigger;

(ab)any self-loading or pump-action rifle other than one which is chambered for .22 rim-fire cartridges,

4(aba)any 'firearm' which either has a barrel less than 30 centimeters in length or is less than 60 centimeters in length overall, other than an air weapon,
a muzzle-loading gun or a firearm designed as signalling apparatus.

So Section 5 (aba) clearly defines that a 'firearm' meaning complete gun or component under 60 centimeters (assembled weapon) or barrel component under 30cm
is illegal to posses, purchase, acquire, or manufacture, sell or transfer without Section 5 authority.
NOTE that section 5 (ab) states 'rifle', the word 'firearm' is not used. This is why component parts of Semi Auto centerfire rifles fall under Section 1 of the act.

So the legislation has established that a barrel under 12'' IS a Section5 aba component.

Now:

R v Clarke (F), 82 Cr App R 308, CA states that the component part of a prohibited weapon is itself a PROHIBITED WEAPON. Although there is no statutory definition, the Home Office Guidance to the Police at paragraph 13.70 states the following:

The term "component part" may be held to include (i) the barrel, chamber, cylinder, (ii) frame, body or receiver, (iii) breech, block, bolt or other mechanism for containing the charge at the rear of the chamber (iv), any other part of the firearm upon which the pressure caused by firing the weapon impinges directly. Magazines, sights and furniture are not considered component parts.

So the use of the term 'Prohibited Weapon' to define component parts as prohibited weapons in there own right is important. There is case law.
There is no statement to indicate whether the component part / prohibited weapon has to come from an existing weapon or be manufactured, as the act makes provision for the manufacture of parts its logical that they would be covered too.
3.26 states: The expression “firearm” in the 1968 Act means a lethal barreled weapon of any description, or COMPONENT part of such WEAPON, from which any shot, bullet or other missile can be discharged.
We already know that manufacture of Sec5 component parts is controlled.

The next chunk of legislation states the following:

7 Conversion not to affect classification.
(1)Any weapon which—
1(a)has at any time (whether before or after the passing of the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1997) been a weapon of a kind described in section 5(1) or (1A) of the principal Act (including any amendments to section 5(1) made under section 1(4) of this Act).

So Sec5 covers 5a, 5ab and 5aba and others. Any conversion of a prohibited weapon (as detailed in R v Clarke, a component part IS a prohibited weapon in itself) cannot be converted to another classification, it retains its original Section 5 status.

Therefore a Section5 aba component part (in this case a barrel under 12'') cannot be converted to Section1 or transferred to an individual who does not have authority under Section5 of the act to posses such an item.

As I stated earlier, it makes complete sense why the Home Office wants Breachers conversion work to be undertaken by a Sec5 authority, as the process involves the manufacture of a Sec5 aba component, what I'm amazed at is the conversion and subsequent transfer of a Sec5 aba component to Sec1.

That's my interpretation of the legislation. Ultimately and in the unlikely event this went to court it would be for a jury to decide. My personal opinion is that the email from the Home Office is incorrect, it contradicts the legislation and doesn't give permission to the Sec5 gunsmith to convert a Sec5 aba component to Sec1 for the purposes of transfer.
Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Polchraine and 5 guests