New laws coming?

[HH1]

I have been listening to parts of the debate this afternoon. They don't seem to understand the distinct difference between semi-auto and MARS / Lever-release.... going on about even Donald Trump has concerns about semi-automatic assault weapons

[JSC]

That's because I doubt any specific shooting organisation is taking the trouble to brief MPs properly on the MARS/LR part of the Bill. There seems to have been some influence coming from the FCSA and/or BASC maybe but they are only worried about .50cals.

There is no 'lever release' shooting association who can lobby. That's why it's important that the MPs who stood up today in the House and challenged the Bill are written to, but you have to be in their constituency for them to take any notice. So let's try and get together a list of those MPs and find shooters we know who can write to them.

[JSC]

Here's the start of the list of MPs who stood up today and objected to the firearms section of the Bill (mainly the 13,600J part).

If you live in one of these constituencies, please write to them thanking them for speaking out against the Bill and reminding them that lever release and MARS rifles are in no way semi-automatic, have a legitimate use and have never been used in crime. We need to educate them so that at the next stage of the Bill we can count on their support.

Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con)
Mr Jonathan Djanogly (Huntingdon) (Con)
Mr Iain Duncan Smith (Chingford and Woodford Green) (Con)
Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) (Con)
Mr Alister Jack (Dumfries and Galloway) (Con)
Robert Courts (Witney) (Con)
Dr David Drew (Stroud) (Lab/Co-op)
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)
Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab)

I can list the rest of them once the debate has finished and it's all in Hansard, or you can look through it yourself here:

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2 ... eaponsBill

[JSC]

More MPs who spoke out against the Bill:

Bill Wiggin (North Herefordshire) (Con)
Dr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con)
Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con)
Chris Davies (Brecon and Radnorshire) (Con)
Kwasi Kwarteng (Spelthorne) (Con)
Julia Lopez(Hornchurch and Upminster) (Con)
Ben Lake (Ceredigion) (PC)

If you are in their constituency, or know a shooter who is, write a letter!

Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown needs to be taken to task about some of his comments and the BASC and BSSC should clarify how they briefed him.
This is the response he gave to a question regarding disabled shooters, which is quite misleading:

I was not intending to talk about bump stocks and the VZ58 MARS—manually actuated release system—proposals in the Bill. I know that representations have been made that those semi-automatic additions to rifles help disabled groups, but I take the view, having received representations from the groups I represent, that such adaptations of otherwise bolt-action single-shot rifles, converting them into, in effect, semi-automatic rifles should be banned. After the horrific shootings in the United States, even President Trump was minded to say that they should be banned. On that basis, I think Ministers are doing the right thing, although I accept that it might well disadvantage some disabled people. We have to find other ways of helping those groups, perhaps by adapting rifles or the places where these people shoot.

I am chairman of the all-party group on shooting and conservation, and I work closely with all the professional shooting bodies, including the British Association for Shooting and Conservation, the Countryside Alliance and the British Shooting Sports Council. They have made lots of very professional representations to the Minister on this subject. I have also been working closely with my hon. Friend the Member for Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly), who represents the BSSC but could not be here for our debate because, unfortunately, he has had to attend a family funeral today. We are seeking to persuade the Minister to consider modifying the proposals.

In clause 28(2), the Government propose to ban all weapons that have a muzzle energy greater than 13,600 joules. The Bill would put them into section 5 of the Firearms Act 1968—in other words, it would make them a prohibited weapon. There are about 200 of those weapons—a small number—and just over 200 people, probably, have a licence to use them. I will discuss where the weapons should be stored, but I want to give the House a sense of the sort of people who are disadvantaged by the Bill by quoting paragraph 7 of the British Shooting Sports Council brief:

“In fact, the Fifty Calibre Shooters Association…which is dedicated to target shooting with this calibre has its origins in the early 1980s in the USA and has over 2,500 members internationally. It is affiliated with .50 calibre target rifle shooting groups in Australia, Switzerland and the United Kingdom and, in addition to regular competitions, hosts the annual World Championship in which UK FCSA target shooters compete. The UK FCSA is a Home Office Approved Club, has existed as a well-respected target shooting club since 1991 and has grown to a membership of over 400.

[NoEntry]

I note that the Home Secretary continually makes reference to “Intelligence” received re 50 cal rifles. He has not specified what this intelligence actually consists of, presumably since it’s wrong. In view of the fact that he claims he will listen to other voices in this respect it’s time that ALL shooters and shooting organisations make their opinions known to him.

[JSC]

It was mentioned near the end of the reading that the National Crime Agency had informed the Home Office that according to their intelligence there is more demand (by criminals/terrorists) for larger calibre weapons and that more attempts have been made to bring them into the country.

So they seem to be saying that because criminals and terrorists (according to the NCA) want them, the best thing to do is take them away from civilians who have them just in case they are stolen.

I don't think the high energy rifle part of this Bill will make it through to the end. I do think that unless the shooting organisations get behind lever release and MARS rifle part, they could go, because they aren't being represented by any of the organisations who seem to have the ear of those MPs who spoke today.

[safetyfirst]

I think the lever release and MARS sections will be pushed through as they were a deliberate attempt to circumvent the spirit of the law with regard to semi automatic centre fire rifles.

As pointless as such a law may be in preserving public safety, engineering designed to get round legislation is bound to rub the HO up the wrong way.

[Blue Lizard]

I think the lever release and MARS sections will be pushed through as they were a deliberate attempt to circumvent the spirit of the law with regard to semi automatic centre fire rifles.

As pointless as such a law may be in preserving public safety, engineering designed to get round legislation is bound to rub the HO up the wrong way.

Depressingly true I fear, yet both of a design which complies fully with the current law and have never been used in any criminal activity whatsoever.

The MARS action aside (as I have no practical experience of it - and personally I feel that a trigger should only be used for one thing on a firearm), there is no speed differential between a lever release and a reasonably well-tuned lever action. I say this having shot Winchesters and Marlins ever since losing handguns, and a LRA9 for the past 6 years. Even my Armalon 9mm bolt action does a good job of keeping up with the rest in PPC comps. The finger - not the trigger (no matter how fast it operates) - should always be the focus of safety and regulation in a liberal and tolerant society (yeah, right!).

[Brian838]

I think the lever release and MARS sections will be pushed through as they were a deliberate attempt to circumvent the spirit of the law with regard to semi automatic centre fire rifles.

As pointless as such a law may be in preserving public safety, engineering designed to get round legislation is bound to rub the HO up the wrong way.

The law deals with absolutes, Doris Stokes deals with spirits.
Either it's a banned semi-auto or it isn't. A lever release/MARS isn't.

[breacher]

I think the lever release and MARS sections will be pushed through as they were a deliberate attempt to circumvent the spirit of the law with regard to semi automatic centre fire rifles.

As pointless as such a law may be in preserving public safety, engineering designed to get round legislation is bound to rub the HO up the wrong way.

The law deals with absolutes, Doris Stokes deals with spirits.
Either it's a banned semi-auto or it isn't. A lever release/MARS isn't.

Whilst I agree the law is the law and these are compliant............they are an attempt at getting as near to semi auto as possible within the letter of the law.

Realistically speaking, if you push the boundaries, you have to expect some pushing back !

Add to this, the "test case" was what the authorities see as an AR15 assault rifle or AK47 ( yes I know but thats what the non shooters see )

I believe, had this been done first with a wooden stocked "traditional" rifle, and become accepted / normal / widespread over a few years.......then used in the AR or VZ etc, they might not have been scrutinised.

Its unfair but we as a group are hostage to perceptions and prejudice.


And by the way - its not being banned because they feel its semi auto. They are adding the "new" type of action to the list of prohibited items.