Siege at Tottenham Court road

[Chuck]

Aye Jenks, and he went into battle with a fraction of what these "tactical superstars" don for the least wee thing nowadays.

No Kevlar, Nomex, MOLLE, Kydex, digital cammo or Tactical smalls, just an M1 carbine or a Garand, - maybe a Thomson - a bayonet, a 1911 a helmet and a canteen......and some MRE's....yep a different breed for sure.

[Porcupine]

no need for twin mag set up, there seems to be a trend to accessorise weapons for the sake of it...

Assuming they are firing AIMED shots them semi auto is best and if they are still shooting after 30 rounds then their day is going badly.. How many incidents have involved a mag change since all this started..NONE.

Double mag set up is for intimidation/show. It makes the weapon unblanaces and the second mag is exposed to collect any crud floating about.

I've seen double-mag arrangements on G36s before Mumbai. I saw one on a SIG 552 somewhere in the south west just after 7/7 too (I remember because they boarded the train I was on rather dramatically to no apparent end). I suppose it's common with these because both designs have magazines which can be daisy chained without the need for a mag clamp like used to be popular on MP5s.

I use a Redi Mag on one of my ARs and I like it. I don't find it unbalances the gun. In fact it helps with recoil because it counteracts the tendency of the gun to rotate from the twist in the rifling. It also keeps the top of the mag covered so it's no more prone to the ingress of dirt than if it were in a pouch. I think the Redi Mag in particular is great because you can do a speed reload just as fast as if you had the mags clamped, but you can also reload normally without having to faff about coupling and uncoupling mags, while keeping the one in your Redi Mag for a real emergency speed reload.

If there was no need to change mags then why bother carrying multiples? Why bother having removable mags at all? You never know how many rounds you might need to fire. Any time you get people armed and inside a building or otherwise with good cover but exchanging fire you're likely to be burning through a lot of rounds. It's not necessarily a case of running dry either. If I've fired more than ten rounds I'd want to do an admin reload when I get the opportunity and even then, the faster I can complete the reload the better. British police may have to reload more often too because they often have (visibly since the G36 mags are clear) only ten rounds in a mag. And the G36 has an AK style paddle release, not a button. So unless you're going to do an AK-slap style speed reload, which I can't see them being taught, your reloads are pretty slow. Clamping your mags speeds things up quite a lot, more so than on an AR or similar.

I don't think exposing the top of the mag is a big issue in law enforcement either (in this country at least). It's not like they're in the desert or crawling through mud. They probably stay cleaner than if they were shoved in a pouch that's probably full of lint! And if you do ever get the mag dirty you don't have to use it, just take one from your pouches.

Cops at Glasgow airport now sporting weapons with vertical grips WHY?? They don't need them, they don't fire full auto and the 9mm / .223 isn't exactly a kicky cartridge.

The popular use for vert grips today is not to grab on to them like a beer can but to use them as index points for a modern grip, like so. Then it's not really providing you any leverage, it's just locking your hand in place and maintaining consistency in terms of where you hold the gun. Also, if you're a big guy using a short barreled gun like a G36C, MP7 or MP5 you may not be able to get a comfortable modern grip, in which case a vertical grip is the next best thing. Again, you'd avoid the beer can grip as much as possible, doing something like this. Weapons retention is another good reason to run a vertical grip. If someone grabs my muzzle I want two points of leverage to keep control of it with, not one. And if you notice the extra three ounces it adds to your gun then you're more sensitive to weight than I am and probably shouldn't be running about chasing baddies!

Just because you're shooting in semi does not mean recoil is no issue. Try shooting double taps with a 5.56 at 100 yards using one hand - that should demonstrate how important the support hand is in controlling recoil, and how much of it there is when shooting semi.

[Chuck]

All good points porcupine

Modern grip aka fad......that looks like the grip currently being touted in three gun matches and competition in general, re-inventing the wheel. Not sure I want my thumb around the sights.

I shoot these things off hand (see pics postd o page 2)when shooting fast, always have done and no accuracy issues, albet a slower deliberate shot gets a tad more grip...

It's a bit like those "modern" pistol grip styles with thumbs too near the slide for my liking, holding the pistol like a mini rifle...haven't seen any ordinary joe punters use it and shoot accurately...they are too busy trying to avoid impeding the slide or just keeping a decent hold in the first place....

Also current "in" fad is gripping an AR style weapon on the mag well...just a short step away from supporting it by the magazine and causing a stoppage as the bolt fouls the mag...whatever works at the time at the end of the day.

So, we go from a vertical grip at a fixed point to supporting from the mag well....and somewhere in between..to gripping at the muzzle....like I said whatever works, there is no "right" way - everyone is different. I suppose the drawback is people abandning a style they use that works and losing accuracy whilst they master another grip - that probably works.

We really all should get together and do a good tactical session and compare notes...

[Porcupine]

I don't think the modern shooting method is a fad. Everyone I've ever seen adopt it has had a lot of improvement. It's been used by three-gun and other practical shooters for decades, was advocated even before that, and has become pretty universal in dynamic carbine instruction.

Of course the best shooting method is the one that works for you, but that's not to say that 95% of people won't shoot better a particular way. Equally while there are many people who shoot great using some other method, that's not to say they'd shoot better if they learnt to shoot this way, and most of them do. Nobody shoots well standing on one leg, without using the stock, jerking the trigger, or focusing on the rear sight, so not all methods are born equal.

I don't think there's any question that we're better shooters today than we were years ago. We can improve. Getting rid of shooting one handed (when we have a choice), not turning side on to the target any more, and quitting spreading our legs so wide we looked like we were trying to do the splits all made us better shooters over the past 70 years. Moving your hand further up can help too!

I should clarify that the 'thumb over' grip you mention is only a variation - the other, equally as popular, is to leave your thumb on the side of the gun - with rails your thumb will be hooked over the one on the side, providing vertical leverage similarly to if it were over the top (some AK handguards have a little swell on either side which serves the same purpose). The defining characteristics of the modern method are simply holding the gun with your support hand as far towards the muzzle as is comfortable for a wide range of motion, grip the handguard firmly, and point your thumb forward - as opposed to what you might call the traditional method whereby people hold the gun close to the mag well, generally 'rest' the gun on the palm more than they grip it, and let their thumb point any which way - which is fine if you're shooting slowly at one target, but not ideal for getting on target quickly, shooting fast, or driving between multiple targets.

I can't say I've ever seen the mag well grip taught by anyone or used by any serious practical shooters. In fact it's usually specifically discouraged because it gives you almost no muzzle control.

[honsu]

Aye Jenks, and he went into battle with a fraction of what these "tactical superstars" don for the least wee thing nowadays.

No Kevlar, Nomex, MOLLE, Kydex, digital cammo or Tactical smalls, just an M1 carbine or a Garand, - maybe a Thomson - a bayonet, a 1911 a helmet and a canteen......and some MRE's....yep a different breed for sure.

Times change if we dont evolve our training and gear we will end up on the losseing side.

I'm sure if we could go back in time to WW2 and bring a guy back show him the modern gear and tattics then gave him the choase to keep his WW2 gear or up grade to the modern stuff he would up grade.

Weather they are modern or old I'm sure they are all made of the same stuff just seperated by time and tec this goes for soldiers and police alike in my book.


:flag5:

[Blackstuff]

Aye Jenks, and he went into battle with a fraction of what these "tactical superstars" don for the least wee thing nowadays.

No Kevlar, Nomex, MOLLE, Kydex, digital cammo or Tactical smalls, just an M1 carbine or a Garand, - maybe a Thomson - a bayonet, a 1911 a helmet and a canteen......and some MRE's....yep a different breed for sure.

Times change if we dont evolve our training and gear we will end up on the losseing side.

I'm sure if we could go back in time to WW2 and bring a guy back show him the modern gear and tattics then gave him the choase to keep his WW2 gear or up grade to the modern stuff he would up grade.

Weather they are modern or old I'm sure they are all made of the same stuff just seperated by time and tec this goes for soldiers and police alike in my book.


:flag5:

Sshhh, you might wake the dinosaurs! :lol:

[Chuck]

I wasn't digging at our modern troops for having all the gear, rather how well they did without it.

Magwell grip is becoming a fad, there are even magwell shrouds on the market to allow a better grip. If you watch newreels you will see troops using magwell hold. US marine chap that was on our shoot was using magwell hold....for about 3 seconds.

Competion and tactical/self defence are different worlds. I agree that we are well rid of this one handed duelling style nonsense as seen in westerns and other movies and also the triangle "having a dump in your pants" stance as favoured years ago.

Funny enough I see people teaching students to stand square on in a "horseback stance" like in karate so that their body armour can take hits...........................Much better to teach to get the hits in first.

Of course things evolve, that's only natural but sylising for the sake of style like w eare seeing in movies today, errr no.

[M99]

What you all seem to forget is that the UK police officer cannot go out and buy a backup or change his duty weapon - he carries what he is issued with and unlike the army - it is not "his" either - shift change and it goes out with someone else! (Not all police forces but most!)

Neither can they buy "addons" for the weapons - non standard bits do not get added to a weapon for you shift!!

[Chuck]

he carries what he is issued with and unlike the army - it is not "his" either - shift change and it goes out with someone else! (Not all police forces but most!)

i was aware of this....so basically these guys carry weapons zeroed for someone elses eyesight...??

[ovenpaa]

This raises a very good point, I borrowed a SIG a few years ago, for the owner it shot the centre out at 20m, for me it was always slightly left of centre. I do accept that the Police will not be taking 20/25m shots a I would expect them to be used for a lot more up close and personal stuff but all the same....