Buying primers

[Racalman]

This is a two part question.

I was advised by Iain at the NRA that a S7 permit is sufficient authority to purchase primers, but one RFD refused to sell me any without a valid FAC. Has anyone else faced this?

Secondly, I'm having trouble finding any large rifle match primers. Anyone know of any stocks in the Home Counties please?

[Sim G]

A sticky one that really should be so simple....

The s7 PERMIT allows you possess firearms and ammunition as listed. It does not allow you to purchase or acquire firearms and/or ammunition.

s35 (3) (c) and (d) of the VCR Act 2006, states CERTIFICATE.

S7 features the words "This permit" and an FAC states "This certificate". A permit is not a certificate. The law says unless a dealer, or exempt by virtue of the Firearms Acts, you need to produce a certificate. Your dealer, in my opinion, is complying with the law. You cannot purchase or acquire primers on the strength of a s7 permit.

Bollox, I know.

[Racalman]

Sorry, but I don't agree. See Section 35 (5) (f) of the legislation:

(4) It is an offence for a person to buy or to attempt to buy—
(a) a primer to which this section applies, or
(b) an empty cartridge case incorporating such a primer, unless he falls within subsection (5).

(5) A person falls within this subsection if—
(a) he is a registered firearms dealer;
(b) he sells by way of any trade or business either primers or empty cartridge cases incorporating primers, or both;
(c) he holds a certificate authorising him to possess a firearm of a relevant kind;
(d) he holds a certificate authorising him to possess ammunition of a relevant kind;
(e) he is a person in the service of Her Majesty who is entitled under subsection (6) to acquire a primer to which this section applies;
(f) he is entitled, by virtue of the 1968 Act, the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988 or any other enactment and otherwise than by virtue of being a
person in the service of Her Majesty, to have possession, without a certificate, of a firearm of a relevant kind or of ammunition of a relevant kind;

I think the S7 permit falls in to that category.

[Sim G]

Are you entitled to possess firearms or ammunition without a certificate? Does any aspect of any Primary Legislation give you an exemption to possess firearms or ammunition without certificate? You certainly don't sound like it as you need a s7 permit to currently possess whilst your FAC is being renewed. So s35(5)(f) would not give you that exemption to buy without a certificate...

[Racalman]

I still don't agree with you Sim, but AFAIK neither of us is a lawyer so let's leave it there for now.

I'd still like to know where I can find some large rifle match primers!

[Sim G]

Fair enough. But I have spent the last 25 years utilising daily, a working knowledge of legislation and law. And despite what hobbsey, saddler and pe4king would have you believe, I'm not a complete knuckle dragger and did actually attain some proper qualifications from a real university!

[Racalman]

Hey I'm not casting any doubt on your competence! Firearms law is riddled with inconsistencies.

I've just checked the 1968 act and here's the definition of a S7 permit:

7.-(1) A person who has obtained from the chief officer of police for the area in which he resides a permit for the purpose in the prescribed form may,
without holding a certificate under this Act, have in his possession a firearm and ammunition in accordance with the terms of the permit.

In my view, and that of the NRA, my permit allows me to buy primers.

If I could find any ...

[Sim G]

Firearms law is riddled with inconsistencies.

I've just checked the 1968 act and here's the definition of a S7 permit:

7.-(1) A person who has obtained from the chief officer of police for the area in which he resides a permit for the purpose in the prescribed form may,
without holding a certificate under this Act, have in his possession a firearm and ammunition in accordance with the terms of the permit.

In my view, and that of the NRA, my permit allows me to buy primers.

The amount of inconsistencies and near contradictions are cause enough to push for new primary legislation to bring all aspects under one Act. However, I believe that would also provide the authorities with the perfect opportunity to restrict even further.

And this is why you are in the pickle you are now. You can possess firearms and ammo, but can't acquire. You need a valid certificate to acquire primers, but only hold a permit. The legislation stipulates you must produce a certificate. You are not granted exemption under any Act. I believe the NRA are wrong in their advice. And regardless, you'd also have to convince an RFD they were right as well...

[Sim G]

All of the above said, it may actually be feasible to purchase primers with a s7 permit...

Bear with me.

So far, I've looked at the concept that a permit and a certificate are essentially two different "licences". Ostensibly, they are. Which then indicates that when say the word "certificate" is used in legislation, then it refers to a certificate and not a permit. So as s35 VCR Act 2006 stipulates certificate, that is what is required to purchase or acquire primers.

However, in paragraph 15.3 of the Home Off Guidance to Police 2016, it states there that s5(2)(a)Firearms Amendment Act 1988, allows those with a s7 permit to purchase shotgun ammunition. In this section, the word "certificate" is used.

In that regards, it may be that permit and certificate are interchangeable. But, again perhaps only in relation to shotgun ammunition. No certification is required to purchase primers for use in shotgun ammunition or for percussion caps for that matter.

I'm still not convinced. It is, I'll grant you, pointing more towards that it is doable. But also considering that shotgun ammunition is treated so differently from centerfire metallic ammunition, it's a quandary.

If that is the basis for the NRAs advice as well, I can see where they are coming from, but it's wafty as f&@£...

[bradaz11]

Or just foster better relations with a local rfd where they do not ask to see fac at each purchase